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Fresque t1_ixs010a wrote

Reply to comment by TargetDroid in In classical Chinese philosophy, all actions are collective by CytheYounger

I thought the rice paddy thing was a metaphor...

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TargetDroid t1_ixs07ht wrote

What, exactly, do you suspect it to represent? We till plants in the West, too, so… that seems to preclude some general point from being made…

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GANJAxNINJA69 t1_ixs145a wrote

You can say the rice paddies represents each persons interests/wealth. One rice paddy has all the water, other rice paddies don’t flourish and is detrimental to the whole. This is not radical thinking just requires basic empathy.

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TargetDroid t1_ixs19f2 wrote

And how, exactly, does that have anything to do with the distinction between Chinese and Western philosophical or religious thought?

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GANJAxNINJA69 t1_ixs2lpp wrote

I mean it was just a metaphor brother. Not meant to be the answer to all

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latakewoz t1_ixszk4x wrote

In china we say: life is like chicken, it can be sweet and sour at the same time

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J4K4LOPE t1_ixsa2p9 wrote

Implying that eastern philosophy is geared towards collective reasoning rather than individualistic and overly competitive reasoning?

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TargetDroid t1_ixshfdb wrote

Because they farm rice?

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Xeludon t1_ixsqevh wrote

No? Wtf?

The example is "people help eachother because if one fails, they all fail"

Rice is the most common grain over there, it's absolutely not racist to use that as an example.

It's like saying "in Europe, people focus entirely on their wheat farms, and will hoard water to make others fail so they can gain more profit."

That's not a racist thing to say, and I don't see how you couldn't see the example, it's pretty racist of you to make that leap tbh.

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TargetDroid t1_ixss88x wrote

The claims being made in the parent comment to which I originally responded appear to include:

  1. Chinese philosophy differs from Western philosophy in some way (action is “collective” or some crap)
  2. Rice has something to do with this.

I challenged anyone to provide something resembling a sensible explanation for this which isn’t as stupid as it appears on its face. In fact, it strikes me as racist because it laughably seeks to explain important, complex, very studiously and intentionally developed differences in human thought to be reducible to some crap about a plant which one of the ethnicities in question happens to cultivate for food. That argument is so stupid, it’s amazing.

In response to my critique, someone in a parent comment suggested that the original commenter intended the rice reference to be a metaphor.

This makes no sense, of course. The original commenter was clearly making literal claims about rice-based agricultural practices leading somehow to different philosophical output among the rice-farming population when compared to non-rice-farming populations. If you re-read what he wrote, you can see that he plainly states that, because of the nature of rice farming, you won’t find Chinese people “hoarding water”.

…

Nonetheless, here we are, with you trying to explain the original commenter’s use of rice as some sort of a metaphor which explains the difference between Chinese and Western philosophy…by reference to…helping people..or something?

Does that seem like an accurate summary to you?

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Xeludon t1_ixstnar wrote

Not even close.

Rice was not the reason, at all.

They used rice as an example of how the philosophy works, they weren't saying "it's this way because of rice".

I have no idea how you read it that way, no one else did, which is why you're being downvoted so hard, your take makes no sense.

The original comment was very, very easy to read and made sense, it very clearly wasn't what you think it was, at all.

The entire point of the original comment was a brief explanation using farmers as an example, rice is the most common grain there, so using rice farmers made the most sense.

Do you think it would've made sense to talk about Chinese society and how it works using olive farmers as an example? No. Because the most common grain is rice.

You took it to a racist place yourself, for whatever reason.

You decided it was racist because you read rice and Chinese in the same sentence and created your own narrative.

the only one here who was racist was you.

Also; yes, their philosophy does differ from western philosophy, because Chinese philosophy hinges very heavily on everyone helping eachother. Western philosophy hinges very heavily on everyone helping themselves.

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TargetDroid t1_ixsudg7 wrote

He wrote:

“…neither of us stands a chance if one of us fails at growing rice in the first place. Thus you do not find them hoarding water.”

That is: because they farm rice, Chinese people have developed more “collective-oriented” philosophical distinctions from those in the West… despite the fact that those in the West also face the basic human predicament of sharing resources and cooperating in the rudimentary manner being described while farming other plants…

So that rice must be really magical, huh?

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Xeludon t1_ixsuyqs wrote

Again; not even close.

The entire meaning is "neither of us stands a chance if one of us fails, thus you don't find them hoarding-" it could be literally anything.

They used rice and agriculture as an example because it's the easiest to follow.

Their point was that hoarding and sabotaging in Chinese philosophy causes negative effects to everyone involved.

Read what they put again, but replace the word water with money, or houses, or cars, or literally anything.

In China, there's laws that stop people hoarding property, among other things.

Their example and analogy wasn't in any way literal. You just read it that way, which is on you.

I'm still not sure where you got lost and why you don't understand, everyone else got it.

And no.

Western philosophy is capitalist and individualistic, based entirely on personal wealth and personal success.

In Western philosophy, it's all for one.

In Chinese philosophy, it's very much socialist and communal, based entirely on societal growth, communal wealth and communal succes.

Chinese philosophy is one for all.

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TargetDroid t1_ixsvkzj wrote

Yikes.

Well, this is why I quit Reddit. I forgot.

Anyway, be sure to educate Yang Chu, a famous Chinese philosopher of the exact time period in question (who makes an appearance in the author’s cited Zhuangzi, even!) and let him know that Chinese philosophy is just all about collectivism!

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Xeludon t1_ixswn6y wrote

No one said it was "all about collectivism"

What is being said is that collectivism is a common theme within Chinese philosophy, which it is.

A good example of this is religion within China.

Buddhism and Daoism- both about helping others, and being communal, the collective outweighs the singular.

Abrahamic religions - about individualism, helping others is minimal, the singular outweighs the collective.

Also; Yang Zhu was regarded as a hedonist, not a philosopher, and was an outlier.

Much like we have people who believe in communism in the west, there's individuals in China who follow capitalist ideals. That doesn't make capitalism the majority belief within China, and doesn't make communism the majority in the west.

That's like saying "well, there's billionaores in the west so everyone is a billionaire", that's not how it works.

You seem to believe that a few individuals within a society believing something the rest of that society doesn't, suddenly makes that society about that individuals beliefs.

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SocialActuality t1_ixsuxyj wrote

The rice farming is just a socioeconomically relevant metaphor for the importance of collective thinking. They never said it was a cause of this emphasis on collective thought or that it was anything but a metaphor.

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coyote-1 t1_ixuiu8f wrote

Ahhh, yet more ranting. Are you aware of how rice grows? It is not a plant growing out of hard earth. It grows in shallow ‘ponds’ that we call paddies. Water must remain in those paddies, yet flow through unobstructed. If it does not flow it stagnates, and the rice molds and becomes garbage.

It absolutely requires a cooperative mindset to get it right.

But you seem resistant to the idea that the basis of survival in a given region would be reflected in the writings that come from that region. Why?

Also, I did not say “Chinese people don’t hoard water”. I said RICE FARMERS do not hoard water. Contextual reading is your friend, targetdroid, unless your intent is to continue to rant and look silly.

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coyote-1 t1_ixuhsgg wrote

We do not cooperatively till plants here! My corn field gets water, that water sinks into the ground otr evaporates. It does not pass down the line to my neighbor’s crop. I’m in competition with that neighbor for the water resource.

Thus we have the rugged individualism of the American West, and of philosophers who emerge from this tradition.

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