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Kektuals t1_ix75g09 wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in The famous Butterfly Dream of Taoist Philosophy and how it recommends a radical openness to judging right from wrong by CaptainOfTheKeys

Right and wrong are just concepts we choose to employ. It’s especially telling that we don’t even agree on them.

We cannot understand Hitler or Stalin any more than they can understand us. Judging them is something that is foolish because we presume that we know enough to judge. I suspect that I’ll even have a foolish person respond to me saying something along the lines of how we know for a fact that they were objectively wrong or evil for whatever reason. That person will have my sympathies, but not my understanding.

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[deleted] t1_ix760s0 wrote

Eh I don’t know.

Did Hitler really think Jews were taking over the world and was doing humanity a favor? He probably did.

Did he send innocent kids into a gas chamber? Yes he did.

I understand how nuanced things can get. Personally I’ve chosen the line to cross and it involves murdering innocent living beings. Especially kids.

You can say I’m not understanding.. but I’m comfortable with drawing that line personally.

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Kektuals t1_ix76d8b wrote

Your call.

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[deleted] t1_ixg3m9b wrote

I can’t believe this bullshit got upvoted. Defend Hitler all you want I guess.

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Kektuals t1_ixgob35 wrote

It should tell you something. But the exact same reason why you feel the way you do is the exact same reason why you wouldn’t learn anything from this. I hope you can introspect, but I have every reason to suspect that you won’t.

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[deleted] t1_ixgraov wrote

Yeah I don’t know how much introspection I need to agree that putting kids in gas chambers is a bad thing. Sure I can see how things got there, but I actively choose to believe there’s a line in humanity. Your opinion remains just absolutely bonkers to me and will remain that way.

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Kektuals t1_ixgs6eq wrote

Exactly my point. You revealed nothing new to me that I didn’t already know.

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[deleted] t1_ix77ch8 wrote

Indeed. And I’m thankful to be able to say that without getting gassed by someone who’s paranoid and surrounded by nothing but their own contemporaries. Honestly it’s a bit wild to me you are willing to give a pass on that.

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Kektuals t1_ix781ug wrote

Why? Reddit isn’t a bastion of intellect. It’s closer to a YouTube comment section than an academic setting. I do my persuading in papers and conferences, not with randoms on the internet. You’re free to think whatever you want.

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[deleted] t1_ix78ex9 wrote

You kind of prove my original argument though no?

“You’re some random on Reddit, your opinion means nothing if you don’t care about my opinions outside an academic setting”

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Kektuals t1_ix78m8q wrote

I don’t know what your original argument was. If you think it’s proven, then it’s proven. Good work.

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[deleted] t1_ix78vgk wrote

Spoken like a true debater.

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Kektuals t1_ix78z1p wrote

Debating on Reddit is pointless. There’s no stakes here. You’re going to think you’re right no matter what argument I give. When’s the last time you were convinced to change your mind on a topic by a debate on Reddit? How many times has that happened in all your debates? I learned to stop wasting my time a long time ago.

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[deleted] t1_ix79e0n wrote

I don’t agree. I’ve been proven wrong before and accepted it. Other times have had a nice look back of “I wasn’t wrong, but I was kind of an ass”.

And why specify reddit? Do you really think someone in the real world is going to change my opinions more effectively?

If you don’t want to waste your time debating here, you might as well stop wasting your time debating anyone at all in any environment.

Edit: I will admit online debates can be more toxic, but that’s no reason to dismiss a generally friendly online argument either.

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Kektuals t1_ix79vmy wrote

Good argument. I’m dismissing this generally friendly online argument. Have a good night.

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SoTastyWhales t1_ix7pduc wrote

The article is about Tao so going into the conversation with a mindset to be ‘right’, ‘wrong’ or ‘convinced’ just totally misses the mark. It’s about gaining new insight and understanding not flexing the strength of your mind or ideas (original or borrowed) against those of another.

Tao often describes itself as ‘A Void’, so against what are you disagreeing? If it’s the person in the comment section though then that’s kinda off topic.

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Whalesurgeon t1_ix7f5xi wrote

Was this your best attempt at a generally friendly online argument?

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[deleted] t1_ix7fsub wrote

Yeah, respectable would have been a better word than friendly

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Whalesurgeon t1_ix7g8c8 wrote

I think a philosophy sub would offer the best dialogue when not debating, but sharing views instead. And the dude you spoke to really didn't want to have a debate I think.

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[deleted] t1_ix7hw2d wrote

Dude could’ve just said that outright and I’d have backed off.

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SoTastyWhales t1_ix7pfen wrote

I mean to be fair he did

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[deleted] t1_ix7qkth wrote

If it was obvious it wasn’t obvious to me otherwise I wouldn’t have said it. You’re trailing my comments a bit too much.

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SoTastyWhales t1_ix7rc1n wrote

Nah just following the whole thread because it’s interesting and you’ve commented a lot.

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iiioiia t1_ix97xvk wrote

>Debating on Reddit is pointless. There’s no stakes here.

Don't you think beliefs spread on Reddit, and don't you think beliefs have at least some effect on people's behavior?

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Kektuals t1_ix9p3vb wrote

No.

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iiioiia t1_ix9qqcn wrote

Do you know (JTB) that zero humans have ever adopted a single belief based on what they've read on Reddit (and if so: can you demonstrate that it is necessarily true, and applies to me personally)?

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Kektuals t1_ixagu0a wrote

No.

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iiioiia t1_ixaiwrt wrote

Well that's weird.

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Kektuals t1_ixanqh0 wrote

If you say so. By the way, I’d avoid using the JTB model as your baseline model for knowledge. It’s a bit outdated at this point.

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iiioiia t1_ixd07g5 wrote

On one hand: agree. On the other hand: most people seem unable to even seriously grapple with the notion of Truth, so from a pragmatic perspective I think it's very useful.

Do you have a superior proposal? I'm always looking for ways to improve.

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[deleted] t1_ixfvzx6 wrote

I’m amazed that someone would think personal beliefs, tied in with the internet wouldn’t have an impact on how people act.

That person flat out said no to you and that is such a blind and ignorant viewpoint.

This sub is looking like Ben Shapiro wannabes.

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iiioiia t1_ixg8rzw wrote

> I’m amazed that someone would think personal beliefs, tied in with the internet wouldn’t have an impact on how people act.

Me too, and yet here we are. > > > > That person flat out said no to you and that is such a blind and ignorant viewpoint.

Can you quote that text, I don't recall seeing it?

> > > > This sub is looking like Ben Shapiro wannabes.

The sickest of burns, how did you come up with something so novel?

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[deleted] t1_ixg9x0c wrote

I was talking about the person who just flat out said “no” to your original comment.

And yeah Shapiro is the master of ego. I wasn’t so much going for the burn, more so just pointing out people who just blindly believe nonsense and act smug on top of it, especially for personal gain. That’s what he is and he should be called out for it.

I was trying to back up your comment but I guess that was a mistake? Shapiro deserves criticism and shouldn’t be worshipped, I can’t believe I’m having to say this… but here we are yeah?

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iiioiia t1_ixgdh9c wrote

Hahaha.....I'm a bit of an odd duck, I wouldn't take me too seriously!

FWIW, I'm gonna RES tag you so to avoid being a jerk if we should ever cross paths again.

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[deleted] t1_ixge2wy wrote

That’s fine but If I say something ridiculous then by all means be a jerk to me lol.. how else can we grow?

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AdultADHD-C t1_ix99xuc wrote

If you eat food then you're murdering innocent beings all the time, maybe not personally but someone is killing plants and/or animals to give you food.

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TunaFree_DolphinMeat t1_ix7pjgb wrote

Calling someone foolish prior to understanding their point of view seems unnecessarily narrow-minded.

I do agree that they certainly weren't objectively evil but their actions should be condemned. We do need to learn from our historical mistakes and learn from them. The US bombing of Japan in WWII is often justified by the potential for saving lives. In reality all we did was vaporize two civilian targets with our brand new toys. It's possible it did save lives. It's also possible that it did not.

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