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SovArya t1_ittwj8u wrote

Reply to comment by MaxTheAlmighty in /r/philosophy Open Discussion Thread | October 24, 2022 by BernardJOrtcutt

My guess is, it's best to understand what we know now and see where it leads us than things we can't comprehend yet.

Atleast until we have the means via test.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_itug9aj wrote

Ok, from this discussion we discovered that:

  1. free will is real
  2. some actions of the body and of the brain are impossible for the mind to control
  3. the mind, if smart enough, will believe at some point the absurd theory that free will is an illusion
  4. this last statement will cause a paradox in which the mind uses its free will to deny its free will
  5. the mind is so deep in the freedom of free will to the point of not being able to see it, like fish in water
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SovArya t1_ituh77c wrote

  1. Not wrong
  2. The mind controls all, but we can only control consciously a few. This is to distinguish the auto mode vs the conscious mode. Example. Breathing as you watch tv is automatic, but you can slow it down or breathe fast. Thinking before doing and stopping a thought becoming an action if bad for us; is probably the highest form of it.
  3. Not wrong. I observe we can be convinced to believe a lie. But we can also change our minds if we're shown the correct measure.
  4. The act itself is not denial of free will but believing in falsehood or a non fact
  5. The mind rarely exercises it since most of the time were in auto mode. Only when we exercise the act of stopping to think and deliberate action non action do we exercise it.
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MaxTheAlmighty t1_itui77w wrote

To quote a meme:

“Hypocrite that you are, for you trust the chemicals in your brain to tell you they are chemicals. All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. Will you fight? Or will you perish like a dog?”

  • Mickey Mouse
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SovArya t1_ituj3im wrote

The idea of the matrix is not wrong, but there's nothing wrong also with focusing on what we can sense even if it's limited. It comes to the point of which one can you live with.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ituja0a wrote

If the Matrix was true, then the film Matrix in this world was actually created by the people of the real life Matrix that maybe were created by another Matrix and so on

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ituv6zl wrote

If we really were like animals, who don't have the even to us misterious concept of free will, then we would, as said before, run mindlessly naked in the forests without a goal. But animals don't spend all their time running in the forests without a goal, therefore they have a primitive free will too. They even have primitive forms of the abilities humans have, they even have a primitive reasoning and primitive communication systems.

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SovArya t1_itx44sd wrote

We are animals is not wrong. Animals has levels of intelligence is not wrong. Example. Ants do what they are programmed to do, and react based on instinct. However smarter animals like dolphins are able to appreciate pleasure. Smart still are killer whales who are able to discern not to bother humans.

If evolution is not wrong or whatever process came about where we are able to picture what we do outside of mere program pattern reaction to stimulus, then free will is exercised the moment we stop doing something we think is not proper.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_itycukw wrote

If humans were created by God and not a product of evolution, then we must have an unknown feature that makes us different from animals.

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SovArya t1_ityd2rd wrote

Do you have a guess for what this unknown feature is?

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ityd75u wrote

The Spirit of God, i guess, but we really don't know what cognitive features should be considered "the soul".

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SovArya t1_itydigq wrote

My guess is it would be the ability to exercise free will. It's something that not all animals exercise. Or it's the one thing that sets us apart.

And I mean this by the idea that when you think of doing something - think it thru- then not do it.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_itydpm3 wrote

Are you saying that some animals have free will? You mean us?

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SovArya t1_itye0hg wrote

My guess is higher mammals are capable. Like primates, dolphins, and others. Even dogs if trained.

Us especially.

We act based on the chemicals but if we stop the effect of what was caused by the chemicals, that's your will and not automatic.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ityecf4 wrote

Like managing anxiety?

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SovArya t1_ityeh0k wrote

Like being able to control your anger. Like boom emotions flood wanting you to kill someone by punching etc , but you don't do it.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ityfne4 wrote

Now that i think about that, if people with down syndrome or other impairments were actually mindless, they would act by istinct and not by empathy and emotion.

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SovArya t1_ityfqr0 wrote

If the brain has damage, then I'm not really sure. I can't really speak for those with my limited knowledge on the subject (special needs)

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ityfufk wrote

Maybe emotions (the human ones) are also part of the soul? I mean, the only emotion animals can have is fear, right?

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SovArya t1_ityfzuw wrote

Emotions are the effect of the chemicals. Our will is the reaction to not act based on those emotions or consciously use the emotions to do something.

Here's an example. When tired, look up with eyes open for 15seconds, you'll be awake and alert. Consciously choose to do that when you can take advantage of how said act affects you physically.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_itygd4c wrote

Then we should learn how to use emotions conscioslusly. For example: in a funeral, you obviously must cry, but when you do it, do it in a correct manner.

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SovArya t1_itygmky wrote

Of course, emotional control is a part of growing up. It's a skill. Until recently I dismissed it. But now knowing it's actual our own choice; free will, it's a must now.

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_itymqfz wrote

Half of the comments in this post are in this discussion XD

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SovArya t1_ityt72f wrote

Not wrong. I mean we're probably interested in this sort of stuff :)

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MaxTheAlmighty t1_ityd3fs wrote

Don't ants and bees have complex society structures, divisions of work and a monarchy government type? If they act instinctively, then the creation of a government Is a completely involuntary process.

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SovArya t1_itydd83 wrote

The system or template may be involuntary. But the nuance, humans can exert their will. To not do a command, to defy a wrong order, to correct and rise to better the system or devolve into a worse one. Ants and bees don't do that. It's all for the proliferation of their kind.

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