Submitted by philosophybreak t3_y9ndt3 in philosophy
Reply to comment by MyNameIsNonYaBizniz in The real practical value of philosophy comes not through focusing on the ‘ideal’ life, but through helping us deal with life’s inevitable suffering: MIT professor Kieran Setiya on how philosophy can help us navigate loneliness, grief, failure, injustice, & the absurd. by philosophybreak
Mainly you have to abandon the idea that suffering is of no value. It's not pleasant, by definition, and we generally do not seek it out, but a life entirely without suffering may be worse than one that had some.
If only some people dont suffer so much that their entire life is not worth repeating or even beginning.
Its not that easy, some lives are absolutely nightmarish and should never even start, if we could prevent it.
Suffering is only "bearable" if it doesnt destroy someone's life, which for some unlucky victims, it does, horrifically.
Apply it at a species level- if humanity suffers some overall, but considers it worthwhile overall, it is worth humanity continuing, regardless if some people draw the short straw.
That's the problem, we dont all agree on this one for all philosophy, which is why we have Schopenhauer, Antinatalism, Efilism and Pro mortalism, nihilism and other "better end it soonest" philosophies that argue for the minority.
Its easy for you and I to say its worth it when we are not the ones with the shortest of the short straws ever, almost no straw even, lol.
If you have seen such suffering up close, you'd understand why some people would rather we dont exist than to keep making these victims for the sake of the "many".
So let's rephrase your point: "I'm not enjoying life, therefore no humans who are enjoying life should exist."
Sounds a bit extreme, doesn't it?
A second thing to ask is why we'd remotely be obligated to keep all people happy instead of just most, or even some. People who don't want to exist are, in most cases, one jump away from not. If they don't want to do that either, well...not our problem.
Here's a few example for your thought, if you would stop engaging in bad faith.
-born with stage 4 bone cancer, died in agony at age 10, not a single day without pain.
-Entire family kidnapped, tortured, raped and murdered in front of them due to war, the cartel, ethnic cleansing, random psycho.
-born with genetic mental torture, the "happy" part of their brain are literally missing (as in no brain matter in that section), not a single day of their existence is not torture.
-millions of children live very short and torturous lives due to war, famine, natural disasters, poverty, genetic diseases, crime, random unpreventable bad luck, etc. What is the worth of their existence? Would you trade places with them?
"Not enjoying life" and "not happy" indeed, this is reality, actual nightmare is a thing for some people, friend.
Telling the victims of suffering to just kill themselves is the MOST deplorable thing another human being could do, extreme sociopathy by definition, not a justification for anything but pure sociopathy.
Its not your problem because you just dont care, you do you, but a lot us do care and are working hard to find a way to make existence worth it for the victims, unless you wanna physically stop us to uphold your "ideal" of narcissism, then why bother shouting about it from the top of your lungs?
And there are billions who do enjoy life. Are those examples you list a reason why those billions should not live and enjoy life?
Again, "I'm not happy, therefore you shouldn't exist" is the position of the school shooter, not a rational human being.
Read my replies again, carefully, because you are missing the point entirely.
You're saying that the suffering of some means the joy of the majority can't be justified, and it would be better if they all didn't exist, yes?
And yet, for those of us who do enjoy life, this is justified.
Now this puts you in something of a state if we take you at your word- you're surrounded by a planet full of psychopaths who will gleefully bring into existence those who suffer just to share what they deem a pleasure with others, generation after generation, era after era.
And yet, you wish to continue living among such sadists. Why is that?
>You're saying that the suffering of some means the joy of the majority can't be justified, and it would be better if they all didn't exist, yes?
Nope, read all the replies again, from the very top.
>If you have seen such suffering up close, you'd understand why some people would rather we dont exist than to keep making these victims for the sake of the "many".
and still wouldnt agree.
those people have enough arrogance and cowardice to decide that no one should be brought in to existence due to the mere possibility of suffering, such 'philosophy' is just depression projected into a world view (and isnt worth serious consideration by anyone)
the vast majority of humanity does not wish they never existed, indeed the vast majority are happy to be alive (anti-natalists use extremely flawed and worthless reasoning by Benatar to justify their position ie Benatar baselessly assumes everyone lies about life quality)
Possibility or inevitability? I'm pretty sure victims of terrible endless suffering still exist, friend.
Though I personally disagree that we should end the world due to the suffering of some people, it is also true that we still dont have any good philosophy that could convincingly argue for the existence of these victims.
The closest we get is "majority rule" and that's just not good enough of a justification, in my opinion.
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