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Bookswinters t1_isjxtba wrote

I think I generally agree. I would emphasize the genetic predisposition to morality likely predates homo sapiens as a species.

Behaviours like a preference for harm reduction, preference for fairness, preference for autonomy, preference for established hierarchies, and a preference for loyalty can be seen in the non human animal kingdom. Furthermore, every human culture I'm aware of assigns a moral weight to sacred objects or actions. I would argue this is largely genetic and forms a basis of an "intrinsic" morality. Humans are born "primed" to accept hierarchy and sacredness as concepts, but it's up to the society to define the specifics. These moral concepts are fairly universal, and it's easy to imagine why such traits would be selected for in a social species.

As we have become more sophisticated we can describe an "aspirational" morality somewhat more seperated from genetics and intrinsic human nature. Usually these place lesser emphasis on sacredness and hierarchy and more emphasis on fairness and harm reduction. Most secular humanist morality models such as Sam Harris' moral landscape fit this "aspirational" morality category, but the ideal person described by various religious teachers could be placed here as well.

Edit: spelling

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Ma3Ke4Li3 OP t1_isk6ifg wrote

I appreciate this take a lot! I actually have an episode with Patricia Churchland exploring this exact topic! I think she focuses to much on caring and altruism at the expense of the kinds of issues that you mentioned. But still very relevant.

https://on-humans.podcastpage.io/episode/1-origins-of-our-warm-blooded-morality-patricia-churchland

Also, do you know of the work of Oliver Scott Curry? his work is very relevant to your take. For him, morality is all about cooperation (non-zero-sum games). I would press against this extreme, too, and say that care and altruistic concern for others plays a role, too. But anyway, both are interesting scholars.

The best scholar who roots the evolution of morality to both care and sympathy (altruism), as well as mutualism and interdependence (cooperation), is Michael Tomasello. The Natural History of Human Morality is a masterpiece!

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Bookswinters t1_isk88db wrote

I haven't heard of any of these folks! I'm looking into them right now, thank you for the recommendations!!

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Ma3Ke4Li3 OP t1_iskflks wrote

My pleasure! For Churchland I would obviously recommend my own interview ;) Oliver Scott Curry has some good youtube videos, just em out.

I'd love to get Tomasello on the show but haven't asked yet. Currently, I think the easiest entry is to check out Ricardo Lopes' interviews of him. You can watch the video on Youtube or just listen to the audio in podcast style (links below). But really, if you have the patience to read Natural History of Human Morality then do! It's relatively short, but super dense. So it's good to start with an interview, anyway. But a masterpiece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt9eS0pCsgo&ab_channel=TheDissenter

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https://anchor.fm/thedissenter/episodes/422-Michael-Tomasello-Interdependence--Shared-Intentionality--Culture--and-Morality-enmd65

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throwhooawayyfoe t1_iskcwex wrote

> Behaviours like a preference for harm reduction, preference for fairness, preference for autonomy, preference for established hierarchies, and a preference for loyalty can be seen in the non human animal kingdom. Furthermore, every human culture I'm aware of assigns a moral weight to sacred objects or actions.

Jonathan Haidt’s social psych research goes into this topic extensively. He spent the first half of his career doing giant surveys across cultures all over the world to identify the kinds of situations humans universally attach moral significance to, though the specifics of each will be modulated by local cultural norms. His list is more or less the same as yours, and he calls it “Moral Foundations Theory.” The most fascinating part to me is that while humans generally all respond somewhat to each of the foundations, the degree to which we attach significance to each one is highly correlated with how strongly we align broadly towards the liberal-left-progressive vs conservative-hierarchical-traditional political parties, religions, and lifestyles of the cultural environments we each inhabit.

I used to readily recommend his book on it “The Righteous Mind,” but it was written in the pre-Trump era, so it’s observations of how these foundations map onto political identities and how that could help us “all just get along” can come off as pretty naive and utopian now. The theory itself still appears to be largely valid, and has given me some very helpful insights in understanding the beliefs of certain kinds of people I don’t often see eye to eye with. So I’d say the book is still worth reading if you are capable of contextualizing some of the political commentary with its time.

He’s not an evolutionary biologist and generally steers clear of specifically diving into statements about that side of it, other than to point to the standard materialist interpretation of all behavior ie: something this universally observed must be at least in part a product of natural selection, with the relevant genetic correlates. It’s also important to note that this would not require any sort of “group level selection” theory to explain, individual- or gene-level explanations have no problem with it either.

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lpuckeri t1_isobhyu wrote

Yup, you can be even more confident because Genetic predisposition to morality definitely predates homo sapiens.

Homo habilis, homo erectus, all the way back to ardipiths were social creatures, surely with many moral tendencies we have today.Many other animals have these morals as well. Even bees will sacrifice themselves to protect the colony(something most see as the most moral act there can be). Monkeys have a complex understanding of fairness and even sharing and empathy. The list could go on forever.

A lot of people misunderstand things like 'how did we develop the morals like our willingness to harm ourselves for others, if evolution only passes on traits beneficial to that organism'. If evolution is inherently selfish, how do we have unselfish morals. Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene can help many get over many misunderstanding of how morals developed and evolution works.

We shouldn't see evolution from just organism to organism, but we also need to think from a gene centered view. Once you understand that, its easy to see why these moral traits develop since they better the population and gene pool as a whole.

To anyone with a decent understanding of evolution it is glaringly obvious how our morals have developed, and also in many aspects why they have not.

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kontra5 t1_isnlgbs wrote

Preference for harm reduction? Harm is in practice defined in the eye of the beholder so it's not useful to talk about it as universal. On top of that once you add context and scrutinize it - it doesn't even hold water. Nobody will prefer living under a bell shielded as much as possible from any "harm" because then they would be the weakest. Suddenly there are obvious conditionals to this "preference for harm reduction." My point is the phrase is too vague and relative to be useful anchor of explanation unless contextualized with specific content and boundaries. Taleb's concept of antifragility comes to mind why this doesn't hold much weight without additional conditionals.

Why I seem pedantic or even petty about these distinctions? Because we could have seen in last decade term "harm" being used and abused for all sorts of ideologies to bully in changes into societies that otherwise people would never democratically agree upon under the pretense this is something universally good, almost like holy good - dogmatic and not to be questioned. And that's not good...

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Bookswinters t1_isokot3 wrote

I'm arguing the perception of inflicting harm has moral weight. I'm borrowing the term from Jonathan Haidt and others. If the arbitor of the morality of the action perceives the action as causing harm, then the action is more likely to judged as immoral relative to an action that does not.

Here's an example - which man has acted more morally?

Man A walks down the sidewalk to his home and steps over a sleeping dog in his path.

Man B walks down the sidewalk to his home and kicks a sleeping dog in his path.

Most will not consider the actions of man B to be morally equivalent to those of man A because most consider man B to have caused harm.

This pattern can also demonstrated in the animal kingdom, many social animals will go out of their way to perform actions that do not harm third parties, all other things being equal. For example, lever A delivers a treat while lever B delivers a treat and a painful electric shock to the animal in the next cage.

This does not mean the perception of harm cannot be subjective or absolute harm reduction is the ultimate goal.

Edited for spelling and clarity

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