Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

ukuskomara t1_irco4o0 wrote

Thank you for posting this article. I enjoyed Dresser's essay, especially since he did a good job of recognizing the virtues of both Heidegger's & Carnap's thinking. I've always leaned more toward the Continental philosophers but have studied and appreciated the Analytic approaches (esp. Wittgenstein). This article rekindled my interest in both for the first time in years. Cheers.

2

[deleted] t1_iraoj5m wrote

[removed]

1

BernardJOrtcutt t1_iraprv9 wrote

Your comment was removed for violating the following rule:

>Read the Post Before You Reply

>Read/watch/listen the posted content, understand and identify the philosophical arguments given, and respond to these substantively. If you have unrelated thoughts or don't wish to read the content, please post your own thread or simply refrain from commenting. Comments which are clearly not in direct response to the posted content may be removed.

Repeated or serious violations of the subreddit rules will result in a ban.


This is a shared account that is only used for notifications. Please do not reply, as your message will go unread.

1

thebundist101 t1_ittvl5g wrote

Heidegger was rejecting a certain view of language. Heidegger's point about "being" (more accurately, meaningful presence) is that our everyday practices always-already assume certain conceptions of that by virtue of which entities are what they are, thereby "ontologicaly" defining them. So, the idea that philosophy can even begun by preforming a logical analysis of language is at the very least already dependent on our everyday/theoretical ontological assumptions: by treating language as a "thing", we have uncritically assumed a certain conception of "thinghood" (that is, meaningful presence). Carnap assume a whole set of empiricist/formalist principles (to be fair, carnap is very much explict about those). Yet those principles only make sense within one specific way of encountering beings. Any person who speaks everyday language knows, by virtue of this simple hermeneutic experience, the alien nature of logical analysis. We do not encounter language as a present-at-hand entity to be broken into parts, reduced to core principles and become an object for disembodied theoretical knowledge. Not that this is wrong taken for itself. Linguistics have a place in our "world". So does logic. But they have no superior claim for knowledge and truth then our much more intuitive and direct sense (sinn) of everyday pragmatics, when dasein encounter beings through their usefulness in a mode of ready-to-hand. The technological attitude which reduce beings to the stuff of Cartesian philosophy (or the sense data of carnap, the phenomenalist radical) can only explain the world so far. This is way only (ontological) phenomenology can be first philosophy (as recognized by Heidegger's Aristotle character): any other question, including "reflective" questions about language and thinking, assume an answer to the question about that by virtue of which things can be meaningful for us in the first place. An analysis of meaningful presence in the most general, and what allows for its coming forth and remaining in presence (human temporal existence), must come before an analysis of things. Finally, it's the world-disculsive rather then the descriptive or even problem-solving aspect of language which must be experienced in order for the meaningful presence of things to come to light. A general conception of meanfulness as divorced from what is meaningful must be attaind before even trying the fundamentaly impossible (and therefore basically "mystical") task of creating a "language about language". Heidegger start thinking in language (rather than about language), only after creating a phenomenological framework that will allow for the meaning-creating aspect of language to be understood and situated properly. Logic has no privileged access to language and is parasitic upon the hermeneutic experience through which things become present and disclosed. Understanding the convergence between anxiety, humen finitude, language as experience, and meaningful presence/disclosure is far from being metaphysical. Rather, it is an open-ended approach towards issues of meaning, signification, and interpretation. Heidegger's conception of the nothing can only be understood through this phenomenological context: meaning belongs to the things themselves and not just our statements about them. This is an important husserlian principle. Therefore, for heidegger, Language as disclusive of things is more fundamental than both the ideal and ordinary conception of analytical philosophy. The words "being" and "nothing" are very much constitutive of our more fundamental attunement to the world of meaningful presence (indeed, language is creative!), which comes before any logical statement about sense data forcibly divorced form it.

1

mirh t1_iralnlh wrote

"Logic" didn't take an issue with metaphysics.

Hell, you could argue the thing itself is, together with the sacred epistemology.

But when anything can mean everything (and why not, also its opposite while we are at it) then you aren't on a quest for knowledge. Poetry seems indeed quite a fitting label for the remainder.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.139543/page/n9/mode/2up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinary_language_philosophy

Philosophy can also be awe then (try to explain the raven's paradox with the indoor ornithology metaphor, and people will be blown away) but jesus christ.. it shouldn't be the alpha and omega, and an excuse to write bullshit (in the sense that whatever somebody understands, you don't give a damn as long as they are "impressed"). To the point that I have read the worst scoundrels wiggling away from any responsibility towards their work, by claiming that the very damn language that they were using to convey such information is just too limited to actually know the world.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the guy too far up his ass ended up being a self-absorbed closed society guy, while the one standing up for "facts" eventually ended up being one of the dearest grandpas of philosophy of science.

And btw it's quite disingenuous to affirm that Carnap and other logical positivists failed. They set the basis for Popper's theory of truth, in what could be considered the biggest example of "progress" that there probably ever was in philosophy.

0

strahol t1_iraz5r1 wrote

You don’t sound biased at all. Not that I disagree with what you’re really saying, it’s just that you sound way too biased for the good of your position

18

mirh t1_irb8c80 wrote

It's part of the package if you ask me.

Be as "harsh" and "bold" as possible, in order for even the slightest rough edge to be visible (and thus readily debatable).

4

iiioiia t1_irbggc2 wrote

> It's part of the package if you ask me.

Whether that is necessary or optimal is another matter. But then, there's something to be said for having fun as well!

−1

mirh t1_irbifml wrote

"Harsh" in the way you can interpret it. You totally understand it how I meant, or it won't click at all, like a semiconductor (and nicely enough, another user below took up on the possible incomprehensions)

Not "harsh" from a point of view of respect.

6

iiioiia t1_irbizyu wrote

Agree (I think?)...but I'm thinking more along the lines of something like diplomacy...but not in terms of getting people to like you, or necessarily agree with / adopt your ideas, but rather from the perspective of getting people to even consider your ideas. (But of course, this can take away from the fun/ease aspect.)

I hope this makes some sense, some ideas are difficult to communicate.

2

mirh t1_irbnn6j wrote

The assumption here is that most people will be comfortable and halfway knowledgeable of themes being treated.

Of course if every man was their own independent separate island, you'd have a far more tentative and shy approach.

3

iiioiia t1_irbojma wrote

> The assumption here is that most people will be comfortable and halfway knowledgeable of themes being treated.

True, but there are several other variables involved, one of which is how people respond to specific language/style that is used during conversation.

Not a big deal, just thought it was possibly interesting.

3

_philophile_ t1_irb5h6e wrote

>But when anything can mean everything (and why not, also its opposite while we are at it) then you aren't on a quest for knowledge.

I don't understand your point here. Are you denying the Hegelian dialectic as a process for uncovering truth and reaching understanding? That seems to he implicit in your framing, but I grant I may well be misunderstanding.

>To the point that I have read the worst scoundrels wiggling away from any responsibility towards their work, by claiming that the very damn language that they were using to convey such information is just too limited to actually know the world.

I think understanding with langugage is possible, to a point -- the impossibility of totalizing signification and recognition -- being that point. Is there something to be gained by denying the limitation of symbolic thought (aside from grasping for symbolic authority)? Again, may be misreading.

>And btw it's quite disingenuous to affirm that Carnap and other logical positivists failed. They set the basis for Popper's theory of truth, in what could be considered the biggest example of "progress" that there probably ever was in philosophy.

Definitely understand your point here... Disagree. 'Progess' is ideological in the most unproductive sense. Historicism is for fools and capitalists. Positivism is only useful toward those same ends.

5

mirh t1_irbftkh wrote

> Are you denying the Hegelian dialectic as a process for uncovering truth and reaching understanding?

I mean, even throwing everything in your basket at the wall hoping that it sticks could be "a way" for discovery, so.. I'm denying nothing in such an all-around fashion. Was it Feyerabend to say anything goes?

> the impossibility of totalizing signification and recognition

That has also a name, and thanks to actually well-defined terms I believe there is at least some rough boundary of what the limits could be or not.

> Is there something to be gained by denying the limitation of symbolic thought (aside from grasping for symbolic authority)?

I'm not denying the limits (some of which I'm sure somebody way smarter than me already demonstrated).

I'm criticizing hypocrites that just handwaves that ex post and call it a day, as if something this fundamental (and definitively unorthodox) shouldn't be in the first pages of their work, and especially as if "pointing out there's a problem" was the same of how proving it from first principles.

A failure that it's even more stark considering that a certain man a century ago spent 360 pages just to explain how 1+1=2 in the most dead cold way possible, and another nuked the provability and consistency of mathematics itself in a tenth of that.

I'll grant though that I was taking more of an issue with users of this sub here, more than specific philosophers.

> 'Progess' is ideological in the most unproductive sense.

As in "scientific progress" it does not seem particularly bad. Even though yeah, I can see how there may be a waaay better word to make my point.

> Historicism is for fools and capitalists.

Nothing to add there.

1