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SyntheticBees t1_jazpbsn wrote

Meh. I see the point being made (and I definitely agree with the skepticism about blockchain fact pools and fact-checking services), but it seems a bit... lightweight?

Like, it doesn't seem to tackle evidence, or facts-as-provisional-beliefs. He also doesn't seem to distinguish between the way general members of the public use "it's a fact" and the way an expert on a topic might use it, the later of which (at least in a scientific context) I've generally found to implicitly be saying "this is the only position reasonable to hold based on our current understanding and evidence", which comes with an implicit invitation to rebut with additional information.

Any discussion of this topic needs to be account for statements with very clear, and easily verified truth conditions. While I don't think the author is encouraging a perspective of complete truth-relativism, the framework he's constructed seems unable to escape it. Perhaps if he'd dug more into the context portion of his triangle, and interrogated how true statements interact with selective framing, he might be able to make a better distinction?

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bildramer t1_jb02v3w wrote

Yeah, I agree. "Context omission is always subjective" seems like a wrong way to put it. Let's split facts into assertions about a model/approximation of the world being accurate (usually implicit), and an assertion about what the truth is within that model (explicit). (That split isn't always a clear bright line, btw.)

The first part is implicit, and thus 1. less visible, 2. more fluid, in that in an argument, you can often pretend you had a different context in mind later, or your intelocutor can have a very incompatible one in mind. Hence the need for trust and compromise. But it's not really any more subjective than the second part - the choice of model is very much like the choice of fact/assertion/observation within the model: it strongly depends on the world, we can tell it is intersubjective, people tend to agree on it independently, we can call it "correct" or "wrong", etc. That's all closer to what we usually call objective, like "the sky is blue", unlike "I like anchovies", even though you always need context even for objective claims ("not at night, obviously").

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TheNarfanator t1_jb07qz9 wrote

Wouldn't evidence fall under the observation category in the trifecta that constitutes "Facts"?

It feels like this attenuation of facts implies, because of the sheer amount of context and observations there could be, there cannot be clear and easily verified truth conditions. Trust feels like the catch-all to where observation and context fail because Part 3 ends with allowing the reader faithful beliefs to a certain extent. I believe the second part also goes into alternative facts to explain the consensus people can buy into depending on the "Facts" - perhaps to eventually lead up to the end.

Wittgenstein's revenge, I would think, puts us in a blackhole passed the event horizon. We are inescapable of the language(s) we speak and have implicitly put truth on the otherside. Eventually, truth (technically, this kind of truth can always be around us but we just don't know it) would gravitate towards us but only if we're in the right space, time, and conscious enough. We can at least begin accept it then. That's just for ourselves too. Imagine trying to share truth with someone else! Feels like a miracle if that happened especially in our day and age. Then again, I feel like truth is outside the scope of the article, so this is just my understanding.

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SyntheticBees t1_jb2b2kx wrote

Some truth conditions are extremely straightforward to verify, like "the sky is blue" or "holy shit come outside the sky is fucking purple wtf". The choice to share certain information might be loaded with implicit context and ulterior motives.

And after all, when two people talk, there's normally some context that both people are operating in, some common set of topics that are being discussed, and both sides would notionally agree about what would support of refute a claim.

It just seems that the article was written with an eye towards beliefs and facts asserted within large sprawling worldviews, and didn't stop to consider the opposite extreme of everyday, extremely mundane and tangible statements.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0a8fu wrote

There is one language we speak that we know for a certainty describes Truth accurately and unadulterated: that’s mathematics

Even an all-powerful God wouldn’t have the power to make math untrue

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TheNarfanator t1_jb0b0ju wrote

That begs the question: which mathematics are you referring to? Algebra? Calculus? Base10?

Mathematics isn't Truth at the highest levels (the fundamental levels?) but it's definitely reliable! Then again if we don't need proof for Truth then you're right, but that feels weird to say.

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theglandcanyon t1_jb3swym wrote

>which mathematics are you referring to? Algebra? Calculus? Base10?

tell me you know nothing about mathematics without telling me you know nothing about mathematics

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TheNarfanator t1_jb40s40 wrote

You reminded me of a shirt I saw once. It said:

"There are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't."

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theglandcanyon t1_jb4u7fa wrote

Yes, I'm familiar with arithmetic in different bases. "Base 10" is not a branch of mathematics.

Algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, graph theory, combinatorics, differential geometry, algebraic geometry, model theory, functional analysis, compex analysis, Fourier analysis ... you had a lot of choices here

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TheNarfanator t1_jb6fyqf wrote

Does "Base 10 math" not make sense for mathematicians? Is that like saying "square circle" or something?

I thought it made sense but it very well could be one of those misunderstandings I have.

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theglandcanyon t1_jb7xukq wrote

It's not something we would usually say. "Arithmetic in base 10", maybe.

My objection, expressed more rudely than it should have been, was to placing "base 10 math" as a field of mathematics alongside algebra, etc.

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TheNarfanator t1_jb8sku5 wrote

No worries.

Thanks for the clarification. Meaning and intention is difficult for me to get across. Sometimes the ambiguity helps. Sometimes it hurts.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0bacu wrote

All of those are only ways we’ve come up with to help better describe abstract mathematical concepts.

But if I’m picking one - well, if there’s any book that talks about truth more than my Discreet Mathematics textbook from college ..well I can’t imagine it lol, literally describing truth with spreadsheets

edit: I just noticed that truth tables were invented by Wittgenstein lol. I never even heard of him until this blog post

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TheNarfanator t1_jb0d7xd wrote

You just activated my trap card!

Then Philosophy is Truth. Not Mathematics.

I mean, Math-Realist would agree with you in a Platonists kind of way, but then we're using Philosophy to justify Mathematics and that's Truth (or at least a subset of Truth).

But now I'm being sucked into the blackhole where Philosophy and Mathematics are within language (because I'm not Math-Realist), so Language is Truth, but that doesn't feel grammatically right.

This is why I love/hate Wittgenstein. It's kinda liberating to concentrate on the language games and place conversations like these as misunderstandings, but at the same time it leaves me without something to ground myself to and I just have to go about my day.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0djvq wrote

The difference is that philosophy only exists because humans exists. Math doesn’t need us

Language is tricky, yeah. It’s how we think so how can we think about language objectively

I don’t know.

But if you need something to ground yourself, consider that the only way we’re able to have this conversation with each other right now is because mathematical truth is so rigid and unambiguous that we are able to build computers. Just by alternating high and low voltages in a circuit. 0’s and 1’s

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TheNarfanator t1_jb0gwyx wrote

To me, that's conceptually equivalent to the understanding that God doesn't need us (the conceptual/philosophical God. Not the religious one).

Without proof or evidence of Mathematics, can we really call it Truth? I think we can really only call it reliable then make the assertion that this reliability is evidence of Math's existence (in the Math-Realist way) but then I can't help but think this is a philosophical claim and that's Truth.

The closest I feel like we could get to Truth (without going philosophical, if that's even possible) is evidence. To me that's more true than Math as Math is used as evidence for factual claims (Like Algebra and Calculus is a subset of Math, Math is a subset of evidence) but then we run into "Facts", so it's not reliable anymore.

...stupid black hole keeps spinning me right round.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0hrnp wrote

I don’t hate the idea of thinking of God as being one and the same as Math. Kind of elegant really

Math doesn’t exist in the same way as anything else exist

Here, this can probably explain what I mean way smarter than I can:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism-mathematics/#ObjMatPla

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TheNarfanator t1_jb0jw78 wrote

I've read up a little on Platonism before so I understand where you're coming from.

To me it's more language, so you know where I'm going: black hooole...ahhh!

If you don't want to be in a black hole, avoid readings on Cantor and Gödel since you've gotten a bit into Wittgenstein already (but that probably peaked your curiosity, huh? I'm sorry).

You've been warned!! But if you do go in and come out, please let me know, and probably the world too. Humanity needs to push it's boundaries without going insane.

Edit: Schopenhauer might be the cure though, just in case.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0l5mk wrote

I’m curious, yes… though a black hole that becomes more irresistible the deeper I go, until there’s no going back, sounds like something inconvenient to my life atm haha

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vegancookie t1_jb0ia1u wrote

If humans didn’t exist, would gravity exist? Of course. If another species came along would they conceptualise gravity how we have? Unknown. It’s the same with maths. We have our ways of looking at the world, and decide how we are going to look at numbers (like what base we use), but this sadly kinda goes back to the whole “if a tree falls” side of things.

What use does maths have if there is no-one to observe the maths, to discover it? What use does gravity have if the universe became lifeless? It would be, but it would also be meaningless.

How we perceive maths, how we perceive gravity, the effects it has on us, is useful.

The concepts of maths only exist because we exist. Would the forces of the universe react differently if we didn’t exist? Probably not (in before quantum physics I don’t understand), but there wouldn’t be any concepts. There wouldn’t be any sense of a difference between a rock, a planet, gravity, light, colour, sound.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0j7tz wrote

If the universe collapsed in on itself and was reborn in a new big bang which resulted in a universe with laws of physics completely different than they are in ours.. the value of π would still be the same. Even there’s no intelligent agent that ever calculates it

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vegancookie t1_jb0jtfj wrote

There would be no one to observe pi. There would be no differentiation between any concepts at all, there wouldn’t be concepts. You need an observer for things to be observed.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0lh8i wrote

Well quantum physics would suggest that absent an observer, there is no reality at all

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vegancookie t1_jb0lsi9 wrote

Wouldn’t that be more aligned to my argument than your own?

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0me5j wrote

Possibly, yeah. When going thaaaat deep I can only guess blindly at answers

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vegancookie t1_jb0px3l wrote

I did say originally “in before quantum physics I can’t understand” :p

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb0s54u wrote

I don’t think anyone can. It seems like even to the physicists it is extremely awkward that our best, most tested scientific theory of understanding of the universe… somehow implies physical reality is directly effected by a conscious mind

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IIILORDGOLDIII t1_jb1nsaa wrote

I think this interpretation of what "observation" means in quantum physics is generally rejected in the scientific community.

It seems consciousness is not a requirement for observation to occur in this context.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_(quantum_physics)

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb1oeja wrote

Debated for sure. Scientists never imagined they’d ever need the philosophers’ help to do science, but they do

What does it truly mean to observe? And does it require consciousness?

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IIILORDGOLDIII t1_jb2hg3u wrote

The definition of observation in this case is clearly defined and different from how you would use it outside the context of quantum mechanics.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb2ifw2 wrote

It isn’t though. There is no clear definition of an observation in quantum mechanics. That’s the only whole paradox of Schrödinger’s cat being both dead and alive. Is the observation when the instrument inside the box records the value, or does the observation occur when the box is opened and the value can be read? There’s no way to know

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IIILORDGOLDIII t1_jb2ngal wrote

If a tree falls in the forest, the vibrations that our ears translate into sound occur regardless of an ear being present.

>As John Bell inquired, "Was the wave function waiting to jump for thousands of millions of years until a single-celled living creature appeared? Or did it have to wait a little longer for some highly qualified measurer—with a PhD?"

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb2opvp wrote

Well yeah...that’s the million dollar question isn’t it.

If the universe objectively cares about life - or even more so - if the universe objectively cares about life capable of being curious about the universe..

Well, I think the profundity of the implications there is self evident

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IIILORDGOLDIII t1_jb2qjq0 wrote

I think the big bang probably happened with or without any conscious observers.

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ElliElephant OP t1_jb2r5fa wrote

🤷🏼‍♂️ That question goes above my pay grade

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andregris t1_jb4beju wrote

Using the book "how to lie with statistics" as an example of the importance of being skeptical is just wierd. The author will do well to remember just who Darrell Huff was, a skeptical statistician hired by the tobacco industry claiming cancer from smoking was a statistical artifact. You can't use his book as an example for why one should be skeptical. It's just plain stupid. A better alternative would be to use Cohen's paper of the significant p-value of brain activity inside a dead salmon. Please don't make facts about true or not, but add the degree of likelihood and effect size to the argument.

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SyntheticBees t1_jb8s1bm wrote

I'm also not sure how his arguments work with super prosaic statements like "hey the sky's blue" or "fuck me the sky's purple!" - context seems pretty irrelevant to the truth of statements like that (though of course it could change the inferences we'd make based on them), and I'm not quite sure how to avoid their overwhelming force.

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