Submitted by Necessary_Tadpole692 t3_10x97jk in philosophy
GuidoSpeedoBurrito t1_j7vhtgj wrote
Reply to comment by InterminableAnalysis in Judith Butler: their philosophy of gender explained by Necessary_Tadpole692
This is true in the sense that science, or even more broadly the process of categorizing things, is done in a social context. Meaning that no one individual decides what any one thing is on the whole, rather it's done collectively.
However, I'm confused as to the point of this point. Technically, we collectively classified and decided that we are all existing on a giant rock with certain properties, and we called it earth. You can do this for literally anything because of how humans communicate, and because of how knowledge is generated.
But in what sense does it mean that it is a social classification? Isn't it much more accurate to say that things like Earth, or sex, exist independent of social classification, and that the terms themselves are things that are social constructions so that we can talk about and refer to something that exists out there in material reality?
I had this discussion with my evolution professor in school, who suggested to me that where we draw lines between species is a social construction. And my response was basically "well yeah. Humans categorize things in order to understand them. But it's not completely arbitrary, it's based on observations of reality that are independent of human thought. There is a difference between a lion and a tiger, regardless of what we call them or where we decide to draw the line, right?"
Edit: missed a word
Edit 2: I see that you responded to the other commenter while I was typing my questions out, so I want to be more specific here because this is always where I get stuck when going through this discussion. You made the same point in another comment thread above and seem very familiar with the topic, so I'd love to hear more from you. I majored in biology and minored in philosophy, so I am constantly torn on these types of points.
It seems we agree that there is an independent reality outside of human observation, and that the categorization or classification as such is the part that is a social classification (construction I think is also commonly used.)
Is this only to point out the fact that boundaries drawn and characteristics chosen in these distinctions are human-created (aka socially constructed?) Because this seems fairly self-evident, but I don't know what work it does. If an independent reality exists, and human understanding is dependent on categorization, and we do have some level of access to that independent reality, then aren't we progressively attempting to describe something that we are not creating, just observing? That is, we are continuously updating our understanding of an independent reality which has characteristics, can be known to us, and requires labeling in order for us to communicate about it?
Please feel free to DM me if you'd rather continue there, but I had this conversation A LOT during my undergrad and never got satisfying answers for it. Thanks ahead of time.
ThisSaysNothing t1_j7x6axy wrote
We aren't just observing reality we are also interacting with it. The concepts we use to describe the world influence the way we interact with it.
The tools we build, the stories we tell, the institutions we create and the relationships we form are all influenced by our understanding of the world.
Thereby when describing the world we are also creating it. Not from nothing but in an ever evolving loop.
This interconnection between reality, our understanding of it and the way we shape it is deeply historically ingrained.
As long as there is a human history it was there and further than that is just not something Butler cares about.
GuidoSpeedoBurrito t1_j7xkloj wrote
I mean this is all true, but changes nothing about the fact of an independent reality. We can lie to ourselves, we can play word games, communicate however we want to. We aren't creating anything other than a new story by doing so, and certainly nothing on par with what is true about reality outside of our minds.
ThisSaysNothing t1_j7yteyi wrote
I think you are simultaneously overestimating the scope of what Butler and other social constructivists claim and underestimating the scope of the meaning of what they actually claim.
I think you would profit the most when further engaging with these Ideas when focusing on this question you asked:
"Is this only to point out the fact that boundaries drawn and characteristics chosen in these distinctions are human-created (aka socially constructed?) Because this seems fairly self-evident, but I don't know what work it does."
Also think about the loop I tried to describe. By interacting with the world we also shape it and our influence is especially important for things close to us e.g. our own bodies, relationships, institutions, tools...
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