Submitted by electric_ranger t3_ydwovo in philadelphia
Comments
-redacted_- t1_itw1374 wrote
It’s interesting how the commenters here all seem to have seen definitive evidence for Mumia murdering Faulkner. Based on what I remember reading the ballistics couldn’t say with certainty that the bullet in Faulkner came from Mumia’s gun. But if it did, isn’t there still room for a case of self defense there?
As far as the witnesses go, anyone that reads about the trial for even five minutes can see there are serious issues of credibility and corruption with the witnesses. If I recall correctly, several witnesses (who did not testify) recalled seeing another man fleeing the scene of the crime.
EDIT: it’s actually worse than I remembered. This Baltimore Sun article states, “the Philadelphia Police Department's own medical examiner concluded that the officer's fatal head wound was made by a .44 caliber bullet. Mumia Abu-Jamal's pistol was a .38 caliber.”
And yes, FOUR other witnesses who were never put on the stand, including one woman whose apartment overlooked the intersection, also reported seeing a [different] man running away.
EDIT 2: I’ve been shadowbanned from commenting further on this thread (and probably the whole sub). The censorship by moderators of /r/Philadelphia is honestly so pathetic. I hope you guys feel good for protecting people from further context and facts though!
ForkBombGoBoom t1_itw71e5 wrote
You "recall" everything incorrectly.
-redacted_- t1_itw7etm wrote
That could be the case, but at least I’m admitting that I’m going off of memory. Do you have any sources that refute what I remember reading?
ForkBombGoBoom t1_itwwo40 wrote
Go to google, type in Mumia Abu-Jamal and do the research yourself.
-redacted_- t1_itxxi1x wrote
I have done that and I’m not any closer to believing your assertions.
There are many, many issues with this case and many questions left unanswered.
ForkBombGoBoom t1_itzxevm wrote
There are not any legitimate questions. There are several eyewitnesses that saw the encounter, clear ballistics evidence, and Mumia was found on scene with Faulkner's bullet in him, and he attempted to shoot the backup when they arrived as well. The misinformation propaganda from the MOVE terrorists has been relentless, though.
Anyway, here's a summary.
Here's the text:
> Mumia Abu-Jamal Remained at the Scene and Was Physically Identified as the Killer By Several Eyewitnesses > > Though he attempted to flee, because of his wound Jamal was only able to move a few steps away from Officer Faulkner’s body, where he collapsed on the curb. This fact is verified by the testimony of four of the five eyewitnesses to Officer Faulkner’s murder. The Police Radio Tape Transmittal establishes that after pulling William Cook’s vehicle over and prior to exiting his patrol car, Officer Faulkner requested backup at 3:51:08 AM. The Radio Transmission Log also verifies that the first police vehicle arrived on the scene at 3:52:27 AM, just 90 seconds after Officer Faulkner exited his vehicle to question William Cook. > > Based on this information it is clear that less than a minute passed between the time when Officer Faulkner was shot and Mumia Abu-Jamal was spotted sitting on the pavement next to Officer Faulkner’s body, by Officers Shoemaker and Forbes, who were the first officers on the scene. The jury heard Officer Shoemaker state that upon seeing the gun next to Jamal, he ordered him to “freeze.” He further stated that instead of surrendering, as an innocent person would, Jamal attempted to raise his gun and fire at them. According to Shoemaker, as Mumia Abu-Jamal attempted to reach his gun, he chose not to use deadly force to subdue him, but instead chose to kick Jamal in the throat and then kicked the gun away from him. > > Officers then attempted to subdue Jamal, who resisted their efforts. After a violent struggle the arresting officers handcuffed Jamal and threw him into the back of the police van that Officer Faulkner had summoned to arrest Cook. (N.T. 6/19/82, 116) > > The jury also heard from each of 3 eyewitnesses (Robert Chobert, Cynthia White and Albert Magilton) who stated that just moments after Jamal was subdued, they were asked to look at him as he lay inside the wagon. Each stated that they physically identified Mumia Abu-Jamal as the man they had just seen run across the street and shoot Officer Faulkner. At trial, these individuals again identified Jamal as the killer. Chobert stated that he never lost sight of Jamal from the moment he shot Faulkner until he was placed in the van. (N.T. 6/19/82, 210-213)
Lots more info on that site that can be easily verified by the court records themselves. I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
[deleted] t1_iu38mpb wrote
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[deleted] t1_itxbgp7 wrote
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-redacted_- t1_ity0xet wrote
You read what you wanted to read, I guess? Not a single thing that I wrote there was a lie.
gigidim t1_ity5qis wrote
You are repeating the "I read the transcripts" crowd of incorrect info every Philadelphian old enough yo remember hears. The coroner's note indicated the wrong gun. The ballistics did not.
Seriously, there are many innocent people in jail who deserve your support and a new trial.
Indiana_Jawnz t1_iu29aer wrote
>“the Philadelphia Police Department's own medical examiner concluded that the officer's fatal head wound was made by a .44 caliber bullet. Mumia Abu-Jamal's pistol was a .38 caliber.”
Yeah, no.
"When asked to provide proof to support this allegation, Jamal’s supporters point to a handwritten note made by Assistant Medical Examiner, Dr. Paul Hoyer. Dr. Hoyer’s note said, “shot 44 Cal”.
Dr. Hoyer testified at the 1995 PCRA Hearing and explained that his 1981 note merely reflected his speculation at what caliber the bullet might be, made when he first saw the wound and before he started the autopsy. The note was written on a piece of scrap paper, and was not a part of (and was never intended to be a part of) his professional findings."
Skytopper t1_ituqu1y wrote
Nope. Keep the Murderer Locked Up.
rossdowdell t1_itvdus5 wrote
Mumia's gun fired the kill shot.
Faulkner's gun fired the bullet lodged in Mumia.
Mumia's death penalty conviction was overturned, which is good because it prevented him from entering martyrdom.
This is desperation. Mumia is an old man hoping the fog of time will grant him mercy. It shouldn't.
[deleted] t1_itw0shx wrote
Nobody is arguing that there wasn’t a confrontation. There absolutely was, and Mumia shot and killed Faulkner.
The question with Mumia is whether or not you view a man shooting a cop who was attacking his brother as self defense or murder and whether you believe Mumia’s accounting of the incident. I honestly don’t know where I come down on this, but the question here is whether self-defense can possibly be applied against a police officer.
1up t1_itw2zkw wrote
>The question with Mumia is whether or not you view a man shooting a cop who was attacking his brother as self defense or murder and whether you believe Mumia’s accounting of the incident. I honestly don’t know where I come down on this, but the question here is whether self-defense can possibly be applied against a police officer.
That is not the question. Abu-jamal maintains that someone else shot Faulkner and he was framed for the murder. Not sure where you got the self-defense stuff, but it is wrong.
[deleted] t1_ity5bdf wrote
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Odd-Neighborhood5119 t1_itwh135 wrote
And yet his brother did not go to court for him
Odd-Neighborhood5119 t1_itwl1u6 wrote
Shooting a cop in the face when he was on the ground is not self defense
-redacted_- t1_itw18q4 wrote
Who fired first?
Edit: Please link to a source that backs up your assertion that Mumia’s gun fired the kill shot. The link was never proven by ballistics, to my knowledge.
mrhedgefund t1_itvhdby wrote
So many folks/protestors who act like they were actually there that night. Yet you never hear a peep from the man's brother who was actually there. How many times did he fail to appear at court hearings over the years? The guy chose to be a ghost instead of fighting for his brother's "innocence".
William_d7 t1_itwk36g wrote
“I ain't got nothing to do with this!” - Mumia’s brother’s statement to police.
TreeMac12 t1_itxqxt4 wrote
According to new "witnesses" there was another guy in Mumia's brother's car who was the real shooter, but the brother never said this or named this phantom.
"At the post-conviction review hearings, new witnesses were called. William "Dales" Singletary testified that he saw the shooting and that the gunman was the passenger in Cook's car."
"Singletary's account contained discrepancies which rendered it "not credible" in the opinion of the court."
"The six judges of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ruled unanimously that all issues raised by Abu-Jamal, including the claim of ineffective assistance of counsel, were without merit."
PHL852 t1_itvqphc wrote
It’s ridiculous how this killer has become a favorite cause of some so called reformers. Really undermines their message.
Odd-Neighborhood5119 t1_itwkj1k wrote
Most of the kids involved with the protest were not even born when this happened.
electric_ranger OP t1_ituheta wrote
>His death penalty sentence was overturned by a federal court, and in 2011, he was re-sentenced to life in prison.
Wednesday's hearing will determine if Abu-Jamal should get a new trial. His defense team says they have new evidence from boxes that the district attorney's office turned over in 2019.
I'm anti-death penalty, so I'm glad he's been re-sentenced to life in prison. I also think Mumia did it, but I fully believe that the district attorney's office willfully concealed documents.
He deserves a full and fair trial. That doesn't mean he'll be found not guilty, but the law must be upheld not with malice but fairly, justly, and in daylight.
AbsentEmpire t1_ituvup6 wrote
This a fair and honest view of the situation. I also object to the death penalty.
I think he's guilty as hell, but if there is really valid evidence that the trial was not fairly conducted then he should be retried and re-sentenced to life without parole.
KMerle t1_itxx36u wrote
Willfully concealed documents? What? The "six boxes" of evidence that Krasner claimed he found, contained no information the defense did not already possess. You need to find somewhere new to get your news.
1up t1_itv6npl wrote
To clarify, this hearing today will not decide that abu-jamal gets a new trial, but it may determine that he doesn't get one. This is a hearing to decide if the court should even hold a hearing where abu-jamal can present evidence and witnesses in support of his claim for a new trial.
In sort of layman's terms, abu-jamal filed a request for a new trial last december, the DA then asked the court to dismiss that request without even holding a hearing because it was too far-fetched, and this is where the court will hear the parties' arguments on the DAs request. If the DA's request is granted, then abu-jamal will not get a new trial (not based on his current arguments at least). If the DA's request is denied, then the court will have a subsequent hearing sometime in the future where evidence and testimony will be presented and after that evidence and testimony is presented the court would decide whether abu-jamal should get a new trial.
jawntothefuture t1_itw9n5c wrote
It's such bs how much media presence this dude gets. Just let him rot away
AbsentEmpire t1_ituw7q4 wrote
I think if he gets a retrial and Krasner celebrates it, Republicans will win the governor and senate races as this will be viewed by the general public as Krasner and the Democrats going soft on crime.
Marko_Ramius1 t1_ituwjnh wrote
Faulkner's widow was w/ the Oz camp at the debate yesterday so it definitely helps them with hammering Fetterman being soft on crime if there's a retrial. I think Shapiro won't be affected because there are numerous instances where he's had to step in and take charge when Krasner's been a fuckhead
Empigee t1_itvjqed wrote
Frankly, I've lost sympathy for the widow since she's started exploiting her husband's death to promote the Republican Party. Mumia is guilty as sin, but that doesn't make using her husband's death for political points excusable. More to the point, as a Senator, Fetterman would have no power over the Abu-Jamal case one way or the other.
[deleted] t1_itxbwuf wrote
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Empigee t1_itxhg0b wrote
My comment wasn't about her going to court. It was about her becoming a mouthpiece for Republican politicians. And let's be real: if her husband hadn't been a cop, Jamal, rightly or wrongly, would likely have gotten out a decade or two ago.
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Empigee t1_itxp8il wrote
If they promote candidates who I feel will harm our community and our country, you're damned right they lose my sympathy. Faulkner has gone beyond trying to keep Abu Jamal in prison to actively promoting candidates who favor policies that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor, destroy the environment, and interfere with women's rights, all of which I would consider more important than someone who died over forty years ago.
[deleted] t1_itxsop6 wrote
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Empigee t1_itxweeu wrote
If someone is selfish enough to put their interests over those of the entire community, they do not deserve sympathy. It is not a matter of simply disagreeing with me. You are deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying because it makes it easier for you to argue against me.
1up t1_itv2ll9 wrote
Why would Krasner celebrate it if abu-jamal got a retrial? His office is actively opposing this request.
electric_ranger OP t1_itv85wi wrote
People reflexively assume “krasner good” or “krasner bad” without considering the many, many, variables.
People incorrectly assume Krasner doesn’t prosecute any crimes.
TreeMac12 t1_itxs959 wrote
"On Wednesday, Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner dropped his opposition to the appeal, opening a potential — though far from assured — avenue to freedom for Abu-Jamal, an outcome that had previously seemed impossible."
“District Attorney Larry Krasner did the right thing when he withdrew his office’s appeal in Mumia Abu-Jamal’s case,” the Amistad Law Project, a Pennsylvania-based prisoner advocacy and prison abolitionist organization, wrote in a statement. “This shows commitment to individualized justice.”
https://theintercept.com/2019/04/20/mumia-abu-jamal-larry-krasner/
and:
https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/media/pdfs/20210604/174602-file-8427.pdf
AbsentEmpire t1_itvrkz5 wrote
He was involved in this case on Mumia's behalf prior to being the DA and talked about it a lot prior to becoming the DA .
1up t1_itvv8gf wrote
That is not true though. Krasner never represented abu-jamal or worked on any of his cases when he was in private practice.
vertical_attorney t1_itwiyow wrote
Source?
electric_ranger OP t1_ituyy94 wrote
It's such a hard calculus. It also doesn't really involve Fetterman or Shapiro, but Oz will try to paint it on them anyway.
For this much I give Fetterman credit, "If Republicans “weaponize” his record and “destroy” his career over his advocacy for second chances, Mr. Fetterman added, including for the Hortons and other men he said were wrongly convicted, “then so be it.”
I think you're absolutely right, because our society has never grown past the "throw em to the lions" level of morality, but I admire about Fetterman's work on the parole board was his willingness to do the right thing regardless of the outcome for his own political ambitions. That's a vanishingly rare quality.
It just sucks so much that his principles might cost a senate seat we need to hold off the fascist takeover of our government.
AbsentEmpire t1_itv29sx wrote
Agree, its also one of the many reasons I support Fetterman and have voted for him every chance I've had, I think he's a true leader in that he thinks about what's right vs thinking about how will this impact my career.
Unfortunately because money, soundbites, and overly smooth brain team politics largely dictate how people vote; I don't think there would be any messaging that Fetterman or Shapiro could do to negate the public blow back from the court ruling for a new trial. Especially if Krasner being the narcissistic zealot he is goes on TV and praises his office loosing the appeal, which he will absolutely do.
KMerle t1_itxu4jl wrote
Jesus Christ. The Horton brothers are not innocent. They were granted clemency. Have you read the trial transcript? The evidence of their guilt was overwhelming, and their story of picking up a neighborhood friend out on a walk, oh by the way who was carrying several guns after killing one person and shooting two others during a robbery, is laughable. One of the brothers was identified by multiple witnesses as one of the TWO shooters.
They may be reformed, and them being free may be a net positive for society, but don't spread falsehoods so easily.
cerialthriller t1_itvh0f4 wrote
This isn’t even being soft on crime this is straight up supporting crime at this point
1up t1_itwlqih wrote
Abu-jamal's request for a new trial is going to be dismissed because of the DA's motion so don't know what you're on about.
cerialthriller t1_itwm379 wrote
The “if he gets a new trial” part is key reading my man
1up t1_itwnaf8 wrote
I just assumed you knew what "at this point" means since you wrote it.
cerialthriller t1_itwucr9 wrote
Yes if it goes to trial.. you’re just trying to be pedantic after realizing you didn’t read..
1up t1_itwxhm8 wrote
I suggest you go back and reread but whatever.
cerialthriller t1_itwudfj wrote
Yes if it goes to trial.. you’re just trying to be pedantic after realizing you didn’t read..
RexxAppeal t1_ituzr3e wrote
I've never read anything that provides reasonable doubt that his gun was the murder weapon. That alone should make it an open and shut case.
But holy shit, the racism and misconduct around every other aspect of the trial was outlandish. It's like the cops, prosecutors, and judge were trying to one up each other in undermining the credibility of the proceedings.
NoWarButMyWar t1_itws49t wrote
Fun fact: Mumia’s trial doesn’t meet the UN’s fair trial standards like at all. His case whether innocent or guilty diminishes public trust in the justice system.
TreeMac12 t1_iu0jtbv wrote
Good thing we don't live in the UN.
NoWarButMyWar t1_iu1eu43 wrote
We live in a country that purports to uphold itself to the rule of law, part of that is having public trust in the judicial system.
-redacted_- t1_itwfiqn wrote
> reasonable doubt that his gun was the murder weapon
This Baltimore Sun article states, “the Philadelphia Police Department's own medical examiner concluded that the officer's fatal head wound was made by a .44 caliber bullet. Mumia Abu-Jamal's pistol was a .38 caliber.”
RexxAppeal t1_itxdiog wrote
A lot other sources say that 44 Cal was an estimate noted during the exam, not a conclusion on the report.
RexxAppeal t1_itz23gl wrote
I've read it in multiple articles. It's even on the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_v._Abu-Jamal?wprov=sfti1
-redacted_- t1_itxzzyz wrote
That is certainly interesting if it’s true. I’m genuinely curious to see a link to a source with that information, as I’ve been looking and haven’t turned up anything reliable.
That being said I think it’s important to note that if the bullet found in Faulkner was in fact .38 caliber, ballistics was still unable to link that round to Mumia’s gun. The burden of proof should have been on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the bullet came from his gun, and the common denominator of a .38 caliber round doesn’t do that.
[deleted] t1_itzxwts wrote
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Indiana_Jawnz t1_iu2p5q1 wrote
The .38 caliber gun on the ground with spent cases in it next to mumia, who was wearing a holster for it, with a bullet from the cop lodged in him, sure seems pretty conclusive
[deleted] t1_iu39hpo wrote
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spekulatis t1_ityic3t wrote
Fuck Mumia Abu-Jamal. I hope he rots in jail.
Leaving aside that he is guilty of murder, he has been given retrial after retrial after retrial and every single time he has been declared guilty. Meanwhile there are people languishing in jail or prison because their lawyers and the judge don't want to look at DNA evidence, new evidence, re-interview witnesses, etc.
I literally cannot think of a prisoner anywhere that has been given more slack within my lifetime.
SmileFirstThenSpeak t1_itui9xp wrote
I just, a few minutes ago, finished reading “The Guardians” by John Grisham.
electric_ranger OP t1_ituioia wrote
Never read it, but I'm always looking for new book recommendations.
Odd-Neighborhood5119 t1_itwha7y wrote
He shot a cop and as the cop lay on the ground. He shot him in the face. May he rot in hell
datz_me t1_itwbuzp wrote
I really hope he gets a new trial They know damn well after all this time he innocent & what all this new DNA testing I'm sure they know it wasn't hom
[deleted] t1_itwbwir wrote
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-redacted_- t1_ity1mi1 wrote
He deserves a fair trial. We all deserve that. Innocent or not, Mumia’s trial was a stain on a system that claims to uphold justice as a virtue.
ForkBombGoBoom t1_itus4sg wrote
This was the most open and shut case you could have without video. Multiple witness, was caught on the scene with the gun which he owned, his spent shell casings next to him, and a bullet wound from Faulkner. Guilty as fuck and proven so, despite these irrational "activists" who want just want him to get away with murder as though that's fucking justice.