Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

Unfamiliar_Word t1_j9uzy3p wrote

The most salient information provided by the article is this:

>Many transit advocates in the city say the $2.9 billion project wastes money better spent on more urgent needs.

This is the first time that I've seen it reported at more than $ 2 billion. I'm not sure where they found that number, but I believe it and.. yikes. If they build this stupid thing, it will probably end up costing $ 4 billion.

Meanwhile:

>The KOP rail extension would carry about 10,000 daily riders, according to SEPTA’s projections.

That's not a lot of people for $ 3 billion.

I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen. Somebody must really want it or maybe everybody is just too embarrassed to admit that they've made a mistake and wasted a lot of time.

I'm very curious to see what the Federal Transit Administration rates this as and whether they agree to fund it through the Capital Investment Grant program. It's hard to imagine them giving it a 'Highly Recommended' and $ 1.45 billion in good faith and conscience, but if the fix it is in, the fix is in.

149

Turtle-power2021 t1_j9v0n72 wrote

I read somewhere else that Septa's board is mostly people from the suburbs so it's on their wish list

112

ParallelPeterParker t1_j9v4fs4 wrote

Each County (and the City, which is also it's own county) gets 2 reps. So that's 8:2 already. Plus the gov, senate min/maj and house min/maj each get a rep. Being generous, that's still 10:5 (giving the most credit to the gov and 1 rep from each body) in favor of the counties.

https://www5.septa.org/about/boards/septa-board/

59

BigShawn424 t1_j9wf16t wrote

Which is a fucking disgrace. 80% of septas riders are in the city.

14

beancounter2885 t1_j9xcxnq wrote

It's absolutely crazy that the Commonwealth would ever go against their largest economy's interest, when they could instead provide them with services to enable the economy /s

5

EnemyOfEloquence t1_j9v4md0 wrote

3 Billion for 10k riders is roughly $300k per rider lmao. I know that goes down over the years but...That's insane.

Subway to Manayunk instead please

86

fungi_blastbeat t1_j9v5qy4 wrote

Subway to Roxborough like the city originally intended. For Manayunk they should do the absolutely possible thing of turning the R6 into a metro line, like what's shown for the Reimagining regional rail scenario 2.

15 minute all day trains with trains that have at least 3 entrances, El style seating, and entrances that are platform level. Boom Manayunk elevated subway made.

72

EnemyOfEloquence t1_j9v6h8e wrote

God that would be amazing. Relying on 2 buses and biking is difficult as is. It would go a long way making Manayunk/Rox feel more apart of the city.

I don't even bother with the R6, it's so infrequent and costs double other methods. Plus lugging up and down a hill

39

fungi_blastbeat t1_j9v7tkz wrote

Word is that scenario 2 is by far the most popular plan based of polls septa has done.

When the R6 runs, you can get from Manayunk station to Market east in less then 20 minutes if there's no hold ups, and 25 with moderate hold ups.

That's on par with trolleys from deeper in west Philly getting to 13th st. Except the added benefit of 0 car traffic.

19

kilometr t1_j9z5ug6 wrote

I was at a SEPTA meeting a couple years ago and asked why can’t they connect the BSL to the R6, and possibly the two chestnut hill lines in north Philly through a new tunnel. They have the extra track north of walnut locust to handle increased transit down there.

A couple SEPTA workers were honest with me afterwards and said they have thought about that for decades but it would fought very strongly by locals to regional rail stations. There’s an increase in crime/loitering around subway stations in the city that you don’t get at regional rail stations. To convert such stations would involve so much pushback it won’t be an easy project. But on the other hand the amount of money and effort they’re putting into this it could’ve gotten it done if redirected.

4

rednib t1_j9ydqe3 wrote

Switching to metro style trains would be a game changer. I don't want to excuse these shitty developers who've destroyed manayunk & rox by overbuilding. But something needs to be done to address the 24/7 traffic cluster fuck there.

3

NoWarButMyWar t1_j9w6qnl wrote

Should do the same thing with the inner burbs on the R5, would suck to have to potentially transfer if coming from say Malvern or Downingtown but ridership would improve where MOST riders live.

2

Nexis4Jersey t1_j9xocdh wrote

If the Ivy Ridge Branch was never abandoned then it would be easy to convert part of the R6 into a Metro but it would better to just run service every 15mins which possible now. But converting without the Ivy Ridge Branch would cancel any restoration of service to Reading, and I doubt people coming from the outer suburbs/422 corridor would want to transfer to a Metro.

0

fungi_blastbeat t1_j9ynj7d wrote

No offense to outer suburbs but fuck them. People who live in Philadelphia which starting from Ivy ridge down should have priority.

2

Scumandvillany t1_j9v0gvm wrote

10000 daily riders, an increase of -4500 over current bus routes

69

hexagonalshit t1_j9y3eq4 wrote

I'm shocked that many people take buses out there. Hopefully this is another much faster option for them...

3

kilometr t1_j9z4zzg wrote

Only know a couple friends who do it and it’s cause they don’t have a car.

1

floydiandroid t1_j9vy863 wrote

Your daily reminder that a Roosevelt blvd subway was estimated at around $3B 10 years ago (I think) and was estimated to carry 90-100k daily.

32

Unfamiliar_Word t1_j9vziaq wrote

If I had an organ that was dedicated to cost benefit analyses... which I suppose would be my brain, so this sentence is off to a great start... it would explode at this point.

The Inquirer article about this recent development, a recent interview General Manager and CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICE OMFG SLAY QUEEN Richards and online discussion have all mentioned the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway. Whether it's entirely reasonable or not, a narrative might be emerging that casts it and KoPRail as in opposition. I think that this could be a good thing, because at the very least, SEPTA deserves to be smacked upside the head for its poor decision making about major capital projects. It's riders deserve the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway, but that will be harder, if more worthwhile, to deliver.

I will at least take satisfaction in fantasizing about how Jay Arzu, Representative Solomon and the remarkably effective movement that they have started for the Roosevelt Boulevard Line are giving the senior managers and members of the board of SEPTA ulcers. The best revenge, of course, will be that it actually gets built. (Some relatively encouraging news: Rebecca Rhynhart hasreportedly come out in favor of the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway)

16

floydiandroid t1_j9vzz7o wrote

I’ve been to both of their sessions and I’m hoping to help be a voice for change within the community. Jay and Jared Solomon are doing good work.

7

Away_Swimming_5757 t1_j9v5exe wrote

Wouldn't this help with 76 traffic. If this KOP extension happens, it seems like it would be a good central hub for bus/ shuttle services to the many employers along the 76 cooridoor (like up in Malvern and further along... lots of big companies with lots of people who live in the city and commute daily, I could see a lot of them being interested in this line)

28

Pineapple_Spenstar t1_j9vj0vc wrote

Yep, and it will make the NSHL accessible for a lot more people. Plus Delco might finally do something about 69th st

14

_token_black t1_j9vnsyb wrote

Problem is the NHSL is not fast, and neither route is all that faster than a bus and certainly not faster than driving.

KOP to Center City with or without the extension is still going to take 60-90 minutes.

7

sixplaysforadollar t1_j9vwuwu wrote

yeah for sure. i've lived in KOP for a long time, these suburbs are still growing so quick from the bleed in from cities.

there's negotiation to build rail stops in Royersford, reading and few others as well that would go into the city.

I can't pretend to speak on the finances etc of this rail project, but from a regular dudes opinion im all for it if it makes getting to the city and places easier than driving

12

justintuck1 t1_j9vuutq wrote

This won't help with 76 traffic. Any traffic reduction gains by the 10k ridership will be offset by induced demand. You see it every time a new highway lane is built. You can see it on Long Island, where the country's most popular regional rail exists, but highway commute times into the city still average over an hour.

9

maxwellington97 t1_j9v09vi wrote

>I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen. Somebody must really want it or maybe everybody is just too embarrassed to admit that they've made a mistake and wasted a lot of time

My guess is that the developers who spent untold millions building developments and apartments buildings there which are essentially isolated, as well as the mall are pushing for this.

20

Scumandvillany t1_j9v0iak wrote

They're not though.

13

mrhariseldon890 t1_j9v5f9s wrote

Yeah, the cost ballooned due to concessions made to those developers who don't really want this.

19

ClintBarton616 t1_j9wnbtt wrote

And none of the suburban politicians are either. This really feels like a thing only SEPTA wants

3

RoughRhinos OP t1_j9v35br wrote

Doesn't the mall not even want it?

11

An_emperor_penguin t1_j9vrocb wrote

afaik no one including the mall was willing to give up parking for this, makes it seem like they couldn't care less

7

Scumandvillany t1_j9v5urp wrote

I've got a sense that the feds may take a look at it again and deny the funds, plus the state has to kick in too. Dunno if I see that happening. I'd hope that a shift to a BLVD subway would be a nice shiny carrot for the feds to fund, as it would carry 100k riders a day by the estimates from 20 years ago. Probably many more now

20

hoobsher t1_j9vxlnp wrote

10,000 daily riders * 365 days = 3,650,000 riders per year * $5 per fare = $18,250,000 fare per year

$3,000,000,000 cost to finish / $18,250,000 fare per year = 164 years and 4 months to break even on fares, not counting maintenance costs

i'm onboard (hah) for viewing public rail investments as a cost of internal improvement rather than as return on investment equity...but this is such a useless addition to the existing rail infrastructure and the cost of it has to be looked at like this. it's a frivolous investment, nothing else to be said

15

horsebatterystaple99 t1_j9vdwm2 wrote

> I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen

Me too.

14

Rottenfink t1_j9vene9 wrote

As you watch the price tag climb and climb and climb, you'll understand why SEPTA is fighting for it. People are gonna get PAID

8

IcanCwhatUsay t1_j9vmyfc wrote

>I still struggle to understand why SEPTA is fighting so hard to make this happen

Look where it ends. Right at the casino. That's who's pushing for it.

8

Katdai2 t1_j9vnrh7 wrote

It actually ends about a half mile from the casino door. They’re, no shit, planning to shuttle people there on golf carts.

10

IcanCwhatUsay t1_j9vp4iy wrote

> half mile from the casino

Yeah, that's literally across the street. Any closer it would be IN the casino parking lot.

12

theaccountant856 t1_j9w0cwh wrote

It’s 3 billion to extend the line? Why is the article 125mil ? Thanks

2

mister_pringle t1_j9w9j4s wrote

That’s just for drawings. No actual rail work.

1

theaccountant856 t1_j9w9tso wrote

No fucking way it takes 125 mil for drawings. What a scam gov contracts are lol

1

Unfamiliar_Word t1_j9wdr1o wrote

Welcome to the world of government consultants. They do the work, because the state doesn't have the ability to.

There's an old joke, probably rooted in reality, about contractors having boats or expensive automobiles called, "Change Order."

3

mister_pringle t1_j9w978l wrote

Easily will balloon to $4 billion dollars. I wonder where they’re going to get that money?

2