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IceCreamforLunch t1_j6ne5gv wrote

It obviously depends on his income those years but if he paid absolutely no taxes then it could easily be what he owes.

He needs to file for the years that are missing, figure out what he owes, then talk to the IRS about a payment plan.

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bockbockchickenhead t1_j6nfijo wrote

We did file, at least I think that’s what optima does? Because we’ve had to sign copies of the tax forms and mail them to optima. And apparently we’re not supposed to talk to the irs directly. My dad said it’s like ignoring your defense attorney and going directly to the judge. I wish I could talk to them directly but I’m not authorized to do so.

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hellolittlebears t1_j6ngc5l wrote

No that’s completely wrong. It is fine to talk to the IRS directly. You do not need to pay someone to talk to them for you.

The IRS cares about getting its money at some point and they are actually quite flexible about payment plans.

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Informal_Distance t1_j6nyn6d wrote

> The IRS cares about getting its money at some point and they are actually quite flexible about payment plans.

THIS. The IRS represents the US Government, an institution that has been around for 234 years. They don't care how long it takes or how little you pay at a time. Re-payment plans can be a lifetime but they won't care because they will get it back eventually. For them it is a marathon not a sprint.

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tmoney144 t1_j6nzufb wrote

That's not true. There's a statute of limitations on tax debt. The IRS is very interested in getting paid before the debt expires.

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NotQuiteGoodEnougher t1_j6oakpy wrote

If you are obligated on a tax plan they will be flexible. The debt doesn't 'expire' if it's being serviced through payments. And a 10 year plan is better than a zero year plan.

I've worked with the IRS on payment plans before. They are very generous on the terms and payment schedules and the interest rates are very reasonable. If you owe it, get in front of it. They will work with you.

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tmoney144 t1_j6olkzg wrote

>The debt doesn't 'expire' if it's being serviced through payments.

Yes it does. It's called a partial pay installment agreement. Installment agreements don't suspend the statute.

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NotQuiteGoodEnougher t1_j6omjx8 wrote

If you acknowledge the debt and work out a payment plan, it absolutely does. You're kidding right?

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tmoney144 t1_j6ondib wrote

Nope. See 26 U.S. Code § 6159 and IRM 5.1.19.3.5(6) https://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-001-019#idm139995971385904

"The CSED is not suspended while an installment agreement is in effect."

Also IRM 5.14.2.2

https://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-014-002r#idm139895071258224
"All taxpayers are expected to immediately full pay delinquent tax liabilities. When this is not possible, taxpayers may be allowed to pay their liabilities over a prescribed period of time. If full payment cannot be achieved by the Collection Statute Expiration Date (CSED), and taxpayers have some ability to pay, the Service can enter into Partial Payment Installment Agreements (PPIAs). The American Jobs Creation Act of 2004 amended IRC 6159 to provide this authority."

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NotQuiteGoodEnougher t1_j6oposf wrote

1st, the OP indicated the tax debt is from 2018, 2019 and 2020, which means they have at least 5-7 years before the debt could expire due to lapse of timing.

2nd. The IRS has other levers to pull in the case of tax liabilities. I suppose the OP could 'hang on' for another 5 years, dodge the IRS and hope for the best. For the money they are talking...unlikely. A couple of hundred, probably.

3rd, I would concede as a non-tax professional that your reply does indicate that a payment plan does not extend past the tax due date, which seems counterintuitive, but that's the Gov for you.

Additionally, what you're NOT saying is that the IRS will look to settle the debt through exisiting assests/liquidation/levy of assets.

>Before a PPIA may be granted, equity in assets must be addressed and, if appropriate, be used to make payment. In some cases, taxpayers will be required to use equity in assets to pay liabilities. However, as discussed below, complete utilization of equity is not always required as a condition of a PPIA. Consider levy or seizure in accordance with IRM 5.10, Seizure and Sale, and IRM 5.11, Notice of Levy if there is significant equity in assets.

So let's not make it like a taxpayer can simply run the clock out and the IRS is powerless to settle the claim for taxes in arrears.

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tmoney144 t1_j6orjc3 wrote

I was responding to a comment that said "they don't care how long it takes" and "re-payment plans can be a lifetime," which is not true, because tax debt eventually expires and the IRS absolutely cares about you paying it before that date. As you can see, by the text you quoted and highlighted, the IRS will levy you if they think they can be paid before the CSED expires.

YOU then said "the debt doesn't 'expire' if it's being serviced though payments" which is just 100% false.

I was not suggesting OP try to run out the clock, that's a terrible idea. I'm just trying to correct the misinformation that is rampant in this sub from people who don't know what they're talking about, giving advice on what they "feel" is correct or how it "should" work instead of how it actually works.

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NotQuiteGoodEnougher t1_j6osuku wrote

Then maybe be a little more pointed and a little less general. For the 5-7 year timeframe the OP is in before the 10 year statute of limitations expires, they are ABSOLUTELY able to engage in a payment plan, and hopefully cover their taxes in arrears.

From you posting, I suppose you score a point for 'absolutism' but accomplish little else.

Yay! You're technically correct, but also wrong. I suppose in one sense though it simply points out that the IRS wants their money. You can make a payment plan, and if it's within the timeframe they will play softball.

If you're up against the wall on the 10 year limit, they'll just bend you over and take what they are owed, with a little less nuance and care.

Also, never ever said "they don't care how long it takes". Go back and read again, none of my previous comments are edited. Perhaps you're in such a hurry to make such a non-point you were misreading? It certainly didn't come from my mouth. I specifically noted the 10 year timeframe.

Ease up, Francis.

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tmoney144 t1_j6ouegk wrote

I know what you said, that's why I emphasized YOU when I responded to what you said. I was originally responding to someone else.

If you aren't concerned about being "technically correct" then maybe don't give advice to people that can fuck their life up.

You know, you could have also just said "oops, I didn't know that," when confronted with the fact that you were wrong instead of... whatever it is you think you're trying to do.

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NotQuiteGoodEnougher t1_j6owcis wrote

What exactly did I give that was factually incorrect?

The IRS will work with you to work out a payment plan? (check)

You have 10 years? (check)

If you don't work out a plan, they can seize/sell assets? (check)

I was wrong that the plans end at the end of 10 years. You however, were also wrong to imply that was the end of the discussion. Carefully leaving out the additional powers the IRS can employ to 'get the money' before the 10 years are up.

I think you're arguing with me, while taking issue with another poster. Try harder.

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tmoney144 t1_j6ox5vn wrote

> What exactly did I give that was factually incorrect?

> I was wrong that the plans end at the end of 10 years

I apologize if correcting you has upset you. In the future, I will be more mindful of correcting your false information so as not to hurt your feelings.

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NotQuiteGoodEnougher t1_j6oxu5m wrote

Lol hilarious. The double down I can't admit I've been arguing with the wrong person defense.

You're a hoot at parties I imagine.

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tmoney144 t1_j6ozmyh wrote

> The debt doesn't 'expire' if it's being serviced through payments.

> it absolutely does. You're kidding right?

>I was wrong that the plans end at the end of 10 years.

What's that about a "double down?"

Again, I know who I'm responding to. That's why I said "I was responding to a comment" (not "your comment") when talking about the post that wasn't you, and then said "YOU then said" when talking about what YOU said.

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[deleted] OP t1_j6ob7ag wrote

[deleted]

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tmoney144 t1_j6om01v wrote

> Getting on a payment plan should reset that time for them.

Well, it doesn't. Requesting an agreement suspends the statue for the short time the IRS reviews your request, but then it start's back up again.

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xnvtnc t1_j6oqugc wrote

Op already paid optima, and their dad is right. This is like saying you can talk to the judge if you don't like what your lawyer is saying. It's true, but unlikely to lead to a useful outcome.

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Heat_Shock37C t1_j6ohd0j wrote

Is this the same advice you'd give to someone talking to the police? Cuz it's pretty much the same thing.

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hellolittlebears t1_j6oislm wrote

No. It’s not.

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Heat_Shock37C t1_j6oj8jx wrote

I guess OP will have to decide independently. It's a government agency with the force of law behind it. That much isn't up for debate.

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Medium_Yam6985 t1_j6noi5i wrote

Optima is a tax relief firm. They’ll navigate the IRS processes for you and help negotiate the final payment (lower amounts, set up a payment plan, file as “not collectible,” etc.). Those are all things you can do on your own, but only if you dig through the options and figure it out, which may be difficult. For their service, Optima will charge your dad a few thousand dollars. The idea is that their fee is less than what they negotiate on your behalf (so a net win for you). Whether or not you could have gotten the same result on your own without spending the money on Optima is hard to say.

Maybe call the IRS and see what the options are, then ask Optima where they see this heading and see which option is better for you.

Optima is a reputable company. But you still have to pay if you use their services, and it sounds like there’s not much extra cash for you dad.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/optima-tax-relief-review

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PM_me_names_suck t1_j6nsaqw wrote

> The idea is that their fee is less than what they negotiate on your behalf

Good luck with that

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HungryMako t1_j6p6axy wrote

So their fee is dependant on the amount you owe, and they get to work out how much you owe..? Sus.

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stew_pit1 t1_j6nh1x1 wrote

What? No. You can totally talk to the IRS, and should, as they're the ones who know your situation. It looks like Optima is a tax service? You might owe them money for working with you, but they have no other power over you. All they are is a middle man that you were never under any obligation to use in the first place. If it were me, I'd figure out how to dump them and deal directly with the IRS.

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tmoney144 t1_j6nylxk wrote

As someone who used to do what Optima does, you can screw your dad by talking to the IRS direct. The IRS will try to get financial info from you, like expenses, etc. There are some expenses that require proof, and some that don't. For the expenses that don't require proof, there is a set number the IRS will give you if you ask. But if you say a lower number, the IRS will take that and not tell you you could have said a higher number. If you say a low number and Optima says the set number, IRS will say "sorry, taxpayer already told me that expense." Which could cause your dad to have to pay more money. I think Optima charges too much, but if you've already paid them, you might as well see it through and don't undermine what they're trying to do.

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xnvtnc t1_j6p9rw5 wrote

A lot of the people who are responding to you in this thread and upvoting comments in this thread have no idea what optima is. Your dad is right. It's questionable whether optima is actually worth the $4k you're paying them, but you've already paid $4k to retain a professional who deals with situations like this on a day to day basis. Let them deal with it, they'll do a better job than some armchair redditor who thinks that they'd be able to sweettalk the IRS into ignoring a debt.

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IceCreamforLunch t1_j6nhpfy wrote

I know you want to help your father but you can't handle this for him. The best thing to do would be to hook him up with a tax professional and for him to do what they say needs done. It sounds like he's picked Optima, so now he needs to work with them and it's on him to understand his options and what they're doing on his behalf.

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bradland t1_j6obo0s wrote

I don't have any experience with Optima, but they advertise themselves as a tax relief & resolution company. Some quick research indicates that they are reputable.

Optima Tax Relief Review 2022: Pros, Cons and How It Compares

If your mom already signed something with Optima, then your father is likely committed to their fees. He should, of course, understand the breakdown of what he's paying. For example, is that $20k all taxes? What portion are back taxes and what portions are penalties & interest? Also, what are Optima's fees?

There's nothing wrong with using a service like Optima. Your dad was, essentially, operating his own business for 2018 and 2019. If he paid $0 taxes, then $20k owed over two years is not an unreasonable amount of money to owe. That's around $10k each year.

Working directly with the IRS is fine, but as I mentioned, if your dad has already signed paperwork with Optima, at least some of the fees have already been committed to. What you need to understand is where they are in the process, and what fees are yet to come.

Navigating back-tax issues can be confusing and difficult. While the folks here might be all to willing to go directly to the IRS, you should understand that it's your dad's responsibility to get his filing in order. The IRS won't do that for you.

Taxes are unavoidable. They cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. Your dad will ultimately end up on a payment plan. If he doesn't make the payments, they'll garnish his wages. He's got to figure out a way to make ends meet. He doesn't have a lot of options at this point.

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jackalope32 t1_j6nvgux wrote

The IRS is actually pretty good to work with. As long as they see that you are putting in some effort they'll do the same. There is a lot of stigma against them but in my experiences it isn't warranted. If Optima is telling you not to work with them I'd want a good reason and a solid alternative path forward in writing.

My gut feeling is Optima is a waste of time and money. If anything find a tax accountant (not an online service) that specializes in trucking. But either way don't feel that you need to hide from the IRS when they reach out.

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thatgreenmaid t1_j6p4kkt wrote

Tell your dad this is NOTHING like that. Talk to the IRS directly. If you owed them $40K for real, they'da been trying to take away your blood type already.

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