Submitted by 1600hazenstreet t3_zwm1m6 in nyc
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1vpxch wrote
Reply to comment by aviciiavbdeadpunk in NYCHA residents without heat, hot water on Christmas weekend by 1600hazenstreet
Many of them should definitely be torn down, but I'm not certain we should just rebuild. NYC is one of the few major American cities that has kept virtually all of its mid century public housing projects and as we enter a new age of climate change and post-covid it's worth reconsidering how we provide housing as a city.
I do not think the city should be a landlord because it's proven after more than 70 years of this that it can not do so very well. Obviously there will always be a need for some sort of public and city run housing like shelters for the homeless, the elderly with no family, and those escaping abuse, but these should be places of last resort or temporary options until long term solutions are found.
Personally, I'd like to see most NYCHA properties sold of to developers who put forward plans to build real communities, not hudson yards bullshit, that maintain the existing number of affordable units with city covering part of the rent but can build as big as they want so we get a bunch of new housing.
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_j1vriur wrote
I mean, NYCHA worked well when the city and state were investing in it. During the 70's and 80's it actually was considered a great place to live, and didn't have its rep for crime until later in it's lifespan.
I think saying "NYCHA is bad now that everyone decided not to care about funding it anymore" is kind of missing the lengthy successful history of NYCHA.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1vtkll wrote
NYCHA was most definitely not a nice place to live in the 1980s.
As to the 1970s, NYCHA basically didn't let non-whites, people on welfare, single mothers, even those who didn't have furniture move in until 1968. It was an extremely selective application process that enabled it to be so successful and when that policy changed tenants staged rent strikes. Somehow I don't think bringing those policies back would be very popular. They were also much newer buildings back then so maintenance work was simpler and not as frequent.
NYCHA spent nearly $600 million to repair the Red Hook Houses after Sandy. That is an insane sum given there are only 3000 residents and those repairs are just to make it livable again, not substantially improve those buildings which still sit in a flood zone.
As the OC pointed out, $40BB is needed to just fix all the current issues at NYCHA and that number will likely only grow. I think the city and taxpayers really needs to consider whether that sum is worth it for substandard dwellings.
139_LENOX t1_j1vy7cs wrote
Tearing down or privatizing public housing are not realistic solutions when you don't have transitional housing lined up for tenants who will be displaced.
People love to talk about the burden of NYCHA repairs, but no one wants to talk about the increased burden on shelters and social services if thousands of public housing residents no longer have access to stable housing.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1vzbfv wrote
Demolishing the worst NYCHA buildings will likely have a long term positive affect on the lives of people currently there. Other major cities like Chicago have already done this.
This study on the outcomes of children displaced by the demolition of the Robert Taylor houses shows that moving away from these places has improved their outcomes in life.
The city has put these people in this situation, it should pay to move them out and to better housing through vouchers as is noted in the study of Chicago.
elizabeth-cooper t1_j1w5y6o wrote
That article says they relocated to better neighborhoods, but not all NYCHA buildings are in bad neighborhoods currently, not to mention you're talking about demolishing the entire NYCHA. CHA only demolished their 17 high rises with 14,000 residents. NYCHA has 300+ projects with 300,000+ residents. There is no possible way that NYC could absorb that many people into private housing being paid for by Section 8 vouchers or the like.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1w81gv wrote
> That article says they relocated to better neighborhoods, but not all NYCHA buildings are in bad neighborhoods currently
Sure they aren't all in bad neighborhoods, but none of them are nice places to live. Cabrini-Green sat just a few blocks from the Gold Coast and other nice lakefront neighborhoods and was less than a mile from the loop.
Look at the projects in Chelsea or the Gowanus Houses—both located next to some of the most expensive real estate in the city—and yet they have high crime and are plagued with problems. Much like New York at large, it is possible to live in a nice area and yet be in squalor.
> you're talking about demolishing the entire NYCHA...There is no possible way that NYC could absorb that many people into private housing
I'm not saying demolish all at once. This would definitely be a huge undertaking and take years if not decades to do.
Lastly, just because it is a huge change doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. No human should be forced to live in the conditions NYCHA subjects thousands to and we should be demanding the city, state, and federal government takes action to move these people to better housing.
elizabeth-cooper t1_j1w98u3 wrote
The kind of housing they could afford, even with vouchers, doesn't exist, will never exist in these numbers. And the kind of buildings that do accept vouchers tend to be run by slumlords no better than NYCHA.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1wbz8p wrote
Do you have sources for any of these claims?
According to this report from February 2022 1.9% of all available NYCHA units are vacant, representing about 3.6K vacant apartments.
That number is several hundred larger than the Queensbridge Houses, the largest NYCHA complex and largest public housing complex in North America.
So again, it would have to be a slow process and very well planned and executed, but even a basic amount of research shows this isn't impossible.
elizabeth-cooper t1_j1wc943 wrote
None of those are affordable housing and/or accepts housing vouchers or they wouldn't be vacant.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1wckex wrote
They are literally vacant NYCHA units, but thank you for letting me know you didn't read any of my sources and have yet to produce your own.
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_j1vygo1 wrote
That’s one article. Look up historic crime rates in NYCHA. Talk to NYCHa residents who have lived there for 50+ years (I know scores). It was absolutely nicer
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1vzl5j wrote
Here's another article talking about the history of NYCHA that even includes interviews with people who lived there talking about how it became bad in the 80s. According to the article, in that decade you were more likely to be a victim of crime as a resident than someone who didn't live in NYCHA. Do you have a source?
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_j1w1xpb wrote
Yes, things got much worse in the 80's, but again even in the early 80's it wasn't what it was today, where the crime rate is demonstrably higher.
SolitaryMarmot t1_j1vxi0u wrote
NYCHA's budget is almost exclusively federal through HUD (not counting rent paid I mean.) NYCHA itself is just a special administrative authority that runs it. Anytime we talk about sequestration or PAYGO or anything like that, it adds to the NYCHA maintenance backlog.
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_j1vy56f wrote
I understand how it’s funded, but it does get funding from city and state as well. But yes the federal government should ALSO fund these programs more.
Fact is the city and state didn’t used to take such a back seat to the funding.
SolitaryMarmot t1_j1w0ki5 wrote
NYCHA has always been federally funded. The state and city just reached a deal in the last budget to create a new PBC that would allow state, city and private funds to be raised for the new capital plan...the Public Housing Trust or some such name. But I don't think that money has been appropriated, only authorized so far. The dream is to shift NYCHA away from federal funding TO more state and city funding but that is not a politically popular move.
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_j1w28jf wrote
That's not how the trust actually works. It converts from section 9 housing to section 8, which you get more federal dollars for per unit. This allows the private companies to collect more money for the rehab work that needs to be done. Same deal virtually as RAD/PACT.
And yes, I know it has always been federally funded, but the city and state ALSO have always put in money. The City also has the ability to manage the Chair and the CEO thus requiring them to pay attention to NYCHA (something this city and state have not done aside from the Trust).
SolitaryMarmot t1_j1wg1iq wrote
but the trust will get more city and state funding than NYCHA did previously right? and it will also do its own borrowing as a PBC. I mean like a substantial amount, not like 3% of the capital budget like the city and state is used to chipping in. I honestly never noticed any city and state spending on NYCHA in past budgets but I'm sure its there if you say so. I'm still questioning how realistic it is the state chips in with the trust. The most powerful person in Albany has exactly zero NYCHA resident contituents. The city is down to cutting story time at libraries. Like its hard enough to get the damn Medicaid bill paid. I'm 100% willing to be pleasantly surprised. But I think it has suited everyone to point at HUD and make them the bad guy thus far.
but I'm not sure it entirely matters because I'm like 90% confident that in 10 years NYCHA will have to reimburse HUD a gazillion dollars once they figure NYCHA let the section 9 tenants stay in section 8 converted apartments who weren't eligible and that's why they aren't in NYCHA section 8 apartments to begin with. Very few things in life are guaranteed except death, taxes and NYCHA fucking up those conversions.
Treezus_cris t1_j1xjoqj wrote
Nycha back log is all skilled trades work aka....nyc union plumbers and electricians and I will saying loudly THE PLUMBER (LOCAL1) DOES NOTHING I mean come to w site stand around 4 hours then start work during o.t and dnt even do the job right when residents scream nycha didn't fix it it's literally the unions no heat it's heating plant techs they on site 24 hours and still do nothing
Treezus_cris t1_j1xjvw1 wrote
Nycha back log is all skilled trades work aka....nyc union plumbers and electricians and I will saying loudly THE PLUMBER (LOCAL1) DOES NOTHING I mean come to w site stand around 4 hours then start work during o.t and dnt even do the job right when residents scream nycha didn't fix it it's literally the unions no heat it's heating plant techs they on site 24 hours and still do nothing throggs necktie bronx had no heat for 2 yrs the problem someone closed the valve it took 2 yrs to figure out a valve was closed smfh
CompactedConscience t1_j1xlnsj wrote
Yeah, even as recently as fifteen years ago people were still writing books with titles like "public housing that works" to explain how NYCHA succeeded where other public housing agencies failed.
SolitaryMarmot t1_j1vyzik wrote
about 1/3rd of the NYCHA apartments will be privitized by the federal RAD program in the coming years. Most people don't hold out a lot of hope for improvement. Look at federal DOD base housing privitization in 1996. Total debacle. NYCHA will just turn into another Balfour Beatty.
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_j1w2dtl wrote
RAD is not privatization.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1vzzmn wrote
Huh, first I'm hearing of this. Thanks for letting me know and would love any sources you have on it and the Balfour Beatty stuff.
But privatizing isn't enough. These places are horrible and provide substandard conditions for people to live in, as evidenced by this and so many other articles.
The city should demolish them and pay to move these people to better housing while they allow new and more housing to be built. They need a multi-pronged solution to the housing crisis, not more bandaids.
SolitaryMarmot t1_j1w1t9v wrote
Reuters has a story tracker up for a while but now I can't find it. But Google the individual stories they all link back to earlier ones. In the end the company pled guiltily to fraud and paid some restitution in early 2022. Some individual maintenance supervisors were arrested but the C-suite mostly paid their way out. The base housing is still falling apart though.
Flatbush_Zombie t1_j1w24ex wrote
Totally unsurprised. Had a few friends in the Marines and Army who were over the moon when the finally got to live off base.
I feel like corruption and the military are like peas in a pod with all the shady shit in the last few decades.
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