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CactusBoyScout OP t1_izg8zyi wrote

Reply to comment by mousekeeping in “Adams Plan Would Relax Rules for Developers Amid N.Y.C. Housing Crisis” The mayor proposed reducing requirements that he said slow the construction of new homes as the city contends with a housing crisis. by CactusBoyScout

Yep. Zoning was first invented to keep apartments from being built near rich people’s homes. Before that, the rich actually had to buy up property around them to prevent development.

And then zoning replaced de facto segregation in the suburbs when that was banned. “Poor people aren’t banned here… we just ban any housing they could actually afford.”

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mousekeeping t1_izg9qbk wrote

100%. It's just a way for rich homeowners to block anything that might impact them in any way and keep their neighborhoods frozen in time. And even if not explicitly racist, it obviously keeps desirable parts of the City majority white and affluent.

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[deleted] t1_izgmk2v wrote

[deleted]

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CactusBoyScout OP t1_izh3vz6 wrote

You’re conflating two different things.

Jacob Riis inspired basic rules around safety and crowding in apartments and light/air.

Zoning in the US absolutely started as a way to keep poor and black people out of certain areas.

> Zoning determines what can be built where, and is ubiquitous in the United States. Low-density residential zoning predominates in US cities far more than in other countries, limiting housing opportunities for those who cannot afford large homes. These zoning regulations have racist and classist origins, make housing more expensive, and reinforce segregation patterns.

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-soc-030420-122027

And NYC’s first zoning law was not inspired by Riis. It was inspired by the massive Equitable Building which was just a giant cube that blocked light on the street below. The first zoning law was primarily focused on requiring setbacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1916_Zoning_Resolution

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mousekeeping t1_izh208v wrote

First I didn't write the quote above - that was from OP.

I don't know why/when NYC zoning laws were written, but I do know that today they make residential construction much more difficult than it should be in a city with an extreme housing crisis, especially large apartment/condominium buildings that can actually add substantial housing stock.

Don't think anybody's arguing that residential zones should be opened up for factories. Also NYC doesn't have industrial revolution-like factories anymore - barely anywhere in the US does and it's ludicrous to suggest that manufacturing would take hold in Manhattan again with the cost of labor and land here. Most no longer exist in North America anymore lol.

Rich people abusing zoning is extremely common, probably the main reason these laws continue to exist, certainly not a rare byproduct. So many affluent blocks with single-family homes or townhouses should have multi-story developments.

People with money and government connections manipulate old laws and file frivolous lawsuits to protect an aesthetic that they like and artificially maintain low-density areas in a growing city with a massive shortage of housing and very limited land. Poorer neighborhoods meanwhile get almost all of the affordable/subsidized housing and other NIMBY but necessary things like homeless shelters, addiction treatment centers, massive parking facilities, industrial storage, etc. The result is racist even if the laws were well-intentioned.

I think comments like yours are just as dangerous. You raise unrealistic fears about "overcrowding, pollution, and squalor" which are often (not saying you intended this, but it's a fact) dog whistles for anti-immigrant sentiment, anti-Semitism/racism, homelessness, and addiction. You pretentiously mention an artist who died in 1914 as a way to justify fear of changes in neighborhood density while virtue signaling to avoid the guilt that people would otherwise bear knowing that they are contributing to financial stress, poverty, and homelessness.

Also cities burning down? Seriously? Large parts of modern cities don't spontaneously burn down any more unless there's a direct cause like a massive forest fire or arson on a mass scale during a riot.

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30roadwarrior t1_izm3lro wrote

Hmmmm that’s a lie. If you have the bucks anyone can live anywhere.

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mousekeeping t1_izmcdo8 wrote

Yeah…but if you haven’t heard, wealth isn’t exactly evenly distributed among racial groups in the USA.

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30roadwarrior t1_izmdjh0 wrote

You mean there are no wealthy minority celebrities, athletes, doctors, singers,network owners… if u hustle you can be wealthy.

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mousekeeping t1_izmi59l wrote

For sure, I’m not anti-capitalist, but if you’re black you’re a lot less likely to have the kind family money/property that makes living in these areas possible for people who aren’t necessarily making insane amounts of money.

I guess I’m mainly thinking of things like brownstones/townhouses on the upper west side or Brooklyn heights/park slope. Obviously there is a black upper and middle class and some of them do live in these places, and if you have enough money and don’t give a f what your neighbors think, then yea you can live where you want. But people might not be especially friendly, even if they’re not racist.

As a white and Asian couple, living in Harlem has been an interesting experience - it is a little stressful to live in a place where you’re not the majority. I’ve never experienced any crime or serious harassment, but def get strange looks and have a hard time making friends and connecting to the local community. Occasional get an unpleasant amount of attention from somebody looking for a reason to be upset when I’m chilling in the park. I imagine it would be similar but more intense for black people in majority white, old-money neighborhoods.

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