I appreciate that, and like I said I'm not arguing for which is right (though I was down voted as if I was)... Hoboken is 1.97 square miles and is miserable to own a car, NYC is 302 square miles, but people think anything they do that works is something we should take on. Hoboken has a population of 59,000 people, NYC has 8.5M. Pretty much the same, ah yes you guys have found the secret. I'm the dumb one. Or this stat just fits your agenda. Reddit is so dumb