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brownredgreen t1_ivfbt1c wrote

Reply to comment by NetQuarterLatte in Left Unmonitored In His Cell, He Etched His Suicide Note Into a Wall On Rikers Island by hau5keeping

Let's start by providing social services, free of charge or strings, to people who need them

Housing reduces crime

Education reduces crime

Healthcare reduces crime

Job opportunities reduce crime

Cops? Cops dont reduce crime.

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hau5keeping OP t1_ivfdb85 wrote

But then how will we scare people into blindly increasing the nypd budget again ?!

/s

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NetQuarterLatte t1_ivfemmb wrote

>Let's start by providing social services, free of charge or strings, to people who need them
>
>Housing reduces crime
>
>Education reduces crime
>
>Healthcare reduces crime
>
>Job opportunities reduce crime

The above are all fair and square and shouldn't be ignored.

But you do know that violent crimes themselves increase violent crimes more than poverty, right?

Among progressives, there's more than enough advocacy for social services and economic improvements.

But there's very little attention to the principal role of criminal violence itself on perpetuating the cycle of violence, which prevent families from lifting themselves out of poverty and perpetuates disproportionally negatively outcomes for minorities/POC.

Why is that?

Edit: my reply below was moderated immediately after I edited it to included citations to academic papers (from the Psychology of Violence journal and the Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine).

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brownredgreen t1_ivfexjp wrote

Advocacy for social services doesn't equate to them being provided.

Until we HAVE those social services, that's what imma harp on.

Why isn't it what YOU are harping on?

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[deleted] t1_ivffui9 wrote

[removed]

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brownredgreen t1_ivfh12f wrote

Citation needed on it being the stronger root cause

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princessnegrita t1_ivfkc7i wrote

They’re misquoting their favorite “source”. They do it every day.

The study was not testing for poverty as a root cause of violence, poverty was a variable that they considered in relation to what they were actually testing.

The source did say that exposure to violence is a strong predictor for violent offending which is common knowledge. It did not say that being tougher on crime is a solution at all.

Honestly even the source identified in their results the effects of poverty/neighborhood disarray on violent offending and said this:

“As expected, youth who reported higher levels of ETV (exposure to violence) and more perceptions of police bias also reported higher levels of CoS (code of the street/something that they said mediates the relationship between ETV and violent offending). In addition, youth who lived in neighbor- hoods with higher levels of disorder and in counties with more poverty reported higher CoS.”

The article ends by saying we can’t just solve this issue by reacting to exposure to violence after the fact, we have to prevent the violence from happening overall.

The don’t say how in the article, but as arresting/jailing people/reinstating cash bail are all reactions to exposure to violence, I’d bet money that’s making sure there’s a social safety net to help BEFORE a crime is committed is a much better option.

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NetQuarterLatte t1_ivfihgd wrote

I edited my comment to include citations.

Edit: welp, it looks like the moderators don't really like citations.

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brownredgreen t1_ivfj0c0 wrote

Lol, blaming the mods? Classy

My gf goes to another school bro, you wouldn't know her.

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NetQuarterLatte t1_ivfkzvv wrote

I DM you the citations, if you honesty actually care about it.

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brownredgreen t1_ivfntm8 wrote

Public forum. Gimme a public answer. I don't want you in my DMs.

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brownredgreen t1_ivg49ou wrote

Buddy, I told you I do not want you in my DMs.

So what do you do? You DM me.

Fuck off.

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NetQuarterLatte t1_ivg7t6g wrote

I had DM you after you requested citation, but hours before you told me here you didn't want a DM.

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user_joined_just_now t1_ivffp8s wrote

> Cops? Cops dont reduce crime.

FACT CHECK: False.

In an article from the Washington Post about alternatives to policing, even they acknowledge that this is false:

> Those who argue that the police have no role in maintaining safe streets are arguing against lots of strong evidence. One of the most robust, most uncomfortable findings in criminology is that putting more officers on the street leads to less violent crime. We know this from randomized experiments involving “hot spots policing” and natural experiments in which more officers were brought to the streets because of something other than crime — a shift in the terror alert level or the timing of a federal grant — and violent crime fell. After the unrest around the deaths of Freddie Gray in Baltimore and Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., police officers stepped back from their duty to protect and serve; arrests for all kinds of low-level offenses dropped, and violence rose. This shouldn’t be interpreted to mean that protests against violent policing lead to more violence; rather, it means that when police don’t do their jobs, violence often results.

Here's another article from Vox regarding the same thing.

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sokpuppet1 t1_ivfpwfa wrote

> This shouldn’t be interpreted to mean that protests against violent policing lead to more violence; rather, it means that when police don’t do their jobs, violence often results.

Police aren't doing their jobs so we should... pay them more?

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tuberosum t1_ivfs4wr wrote

Oh, I see you're not familiar with how policing budgets work:

  1. When crime is low, you increase the budget to keep the crime low.

  2. When crime is rising, you increase the budget to slow and reverse the rise.

  3. When crime is high, you increase the budget to attempt to lower the crime.

  4. And finally, when crime is going down, you increase the budget to make sure it keeps going down.

And you just repeat the cycle as appropriate, year by year.

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user_joined_just_now t1_ivfs76l wrote

I, the excerpt I quoted, and the comment I replied to didn't say anything about paying them more.

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Murdercorn t1_ivgh0bf wrote

Cops do not prevent crime. The police will stand on the next car of a train and just watch through the door while you get stabbed.

In fact, they also do not solve crime. 98% of major crimes go unsolved.

The police already have a fuckload of funding and they choose to use it on militarizing themselves and defending murderers-in-blue.

They do not choose to use the nearly $200 billion they get every year for better training to make them a humane organization of peacekeepers; the training they choose is called "Warrior Training", which encourages cops to see every interaction as though they are a warrior engaging with an enemy combatant.

Police have killed more than 100 children since 2015 in US, data shows

The police have proven they cannot be trusted.

They do not serve the people, they only serve the interests of capital.

The institution of the police department in America is rotten from its origins as the Slave Patrol all the way to up to present day.

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brownredgreen t1_ivfhciv wrote

Now show me the stats on cops committing crimes but the cops wont arrest and charge and/or the DA wont prosecute so they dont show up on crime stats.

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user_joined_just_now t1_ivfld20 wrote

I'm sure it's a huge issue, but like you said, we need to address the root causes of cops committing crime by providing them with more social services and housing.

After all, punitive justice is NOT the solution to crime!

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brownredgreen t1_ivfoeko wrote

Education.

Cops need education.

Maybe like, on the laws they supposedly enforce.

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omgwtfbbq7 t1_ivg1me6 wrote

There’s more to it than even that. You have to make law enforcement an attractive career to get people who are well adjusted and empathetic to consider it. I don’t know what all that entails, but more work needs to be done to figure that out. You also need people in the profession that are capable of absorbing education. For the most part, I don’t think that is the case as it stands today. There’s so many cultural factors about policing as well. It’s really naive to think more education is the answer. There’s so much more to it than that.

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