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“An overwhelming majority of New Yorkers appear to want Albany Democrats to overhaul bail reform, a new poll shows — giving Gov. Kathy Hochul ammo for budget talks to try to force more change.

Seventy-two percent of Empire State residents support giving judges more discretion to set bail for those accused of serious crimes — with a breakdown of 76% of Democrats, 71% of independents and 69% of Republicans, according to the Siena College poll.

Related changes were supported across every demographic covered by the survey of 802 registered voters. The poll had a margin of error of 4.6%, including race, sex, religion, religion, and geography.

Almost all New Yorkers – 92% – believe crime is “very serious” or “somewhat serious” of a problem statewide, while 65% say the same about their own community.

The 65% of black New Yorkers who favor more judicial discretion were the smallest majority of any group.

“For more than a year, at least 90% of voters have said crime is a serious problem in the state, at least 60% say very serious,” Siena College pollster Steven Greenberg said.”

Bail reform is not the major issue. Speedy trial and discovery reform is what's really driving the work load and priority of cases at DA offices to work on and abandon for eventually dismissal by 30.30. Which contributes to the appearance of revolving door of perps and lack of priority to resolve the issue by police, courts, govt

Also Gov needs to revisit the Grieving Families Act that she veto due to special interest lobby - another massive failure that no one is talking about nor much in news

Finally something most of us agree on it seems: judges should have more discretion in bail sentencing. Criminals with violent crime records should not be allowed bail or if bail must be set, it should be set to a very high number.

Lmao democrats support this even more than republicans.

Sorry progressives, we tried it your way, and it was a huge failure, that got countless people hurt and murdered. Time to give control of the party back to the sane democrats.

Progressive legislators don’t give a shit.

Sure, let’s jump into a tough on crime policy, despite the evidence not showing that bail reform has been the problem. It’s an emotional reaction leading to a knee jerk over-correction.

So… we shouldn’t ensure that defendants get the evidence against them in a timely manner, or get a speedy trial?

There may be some truth in noting that 30.30 is getting a lot of cases dismissed. But the solution to that is more resources for handling the process, not subjecting people to unjust processes as a form of extra-legal punishment. It’s the same thing with cashless bail. So much of the criticism isn’t about the law, it’s about how an overwhelmed prosecutorial system is dealing with the law. We need to find a better response than to just unwind the reforms so that our prosecutors can have the upper hand again to railroad defendants.

When there are many people walking the streets with 100+ arrests, I think it's safe to conclude there is something wrong with bail

[deleted]

They also support a larger tax in millionaires but you won't see the Post bragging about that.

No. Discovery is the correct, legal and ETHICAL thing to do. If it's an issue, fund the courts and more staff. Everyone on trial is entitled to ALL of the evidence against them. Period

"Grieving families" don't take priority over a fair trial. That could be your or any one of us railroaded at trial with an immoral prosecutor withholding evidence.

We've tried the "tough on crime" and "War on Drugs" angle for 40+ years. Sooooooo yeah, I don't know that 2 years is enough to undo decades of terrible conservative policies. Plus bail IS NOT PUNISHMENT. That's LITERALLY a violation of several constitutional amendments to impose a punishment before a sentence has been given by a judge.

That being said, the revolving door of people with 10,000 charges being let back out on the street is wild. There should be a precondition that people released must not commit new crimes and that certain crimes go through a separate review process to determine whether that person can safely be allowed to be released pretrial.

And before ANYONE says "well *insert number" people support it", I don't care. Not everyone knows the law and most people operate based on what they think the law is. But I digress.

The current dynamic can't continue but it can't continue anymore than the one favored by the conservatives for the last several decades can continue. We need to sit down and come up with policy divorced of politics and pleasing "the other side of the aisle". Or else we will end up having this discussion again.

you can't have bail reform but also not allow for them to have discretion on if they are likely to be a violent risk. It's one or the other.

When its your family member that gets stabbed because someone with a violent record got off easily ill hear you out

Whoever implemented this version of bail reform did not do a thorough job of closing out some odd loopholes. However, bail reform did help a very high number of folks who were first time offenders to not lose their jobs and livelihood. I hope the next iteration of reforms will fix these issues - especially the career criminals and repeat offenders.

EXACTLY. But that's what conservatives do best. Knee-jerk, fear monger, and overcorrect based on how many people of the "others" they can hurt in the process.

the solution is paying city employees to do their jobs. a paralegal in the FOIL unit makes $38,000 in new york city, thats fucking absurd in 2023

Opposed to people consistently being wrongly convicted or held for YEARS on charges that are then dropped due to lack of evidence. Bail is NOT PUNISHMENT. We need to do something but we need an original idea.

It’s funny because most of the overwhelming majority also voted in Bragg

If a judge was allowed to make a determination as to the proper sanction against the state for a missing item of discovery instead of immediately imposing the draconian remedy of 30.30 dismissals, maybe we could have a fair process that doesn't require doubling the workforce of DA's offices. For example, preclude the state from calling a witness if they failed to provide discovery related to that witness.

CPL 245.80 actually appears to provide that framework, but hasn't been effectively utilized because 30.30 accrual has become the default remedy.

Bragg was only voted in Manhattan, this is a NY State poll; btw he didn’t win the democratic primary by that much of a difference anyway

New York grants the right to a speedy trial known as 180.80. You demand that the DA gather their evidence and indict you within 6 days or you walk free.

If you’re wrongfully arrested, invoke that and tell them to put up or shut up

“with a breakdown of 76% of Democrats, 71% of independents and 69% of Republicans, according to the Siena College poll.”

Conservatives?

Grieving families act was a horribly written bill and deserved to fail. It literally let anyone and their mother come out of nowhere and claim the death of their long lost aunt has irreparably harmed them and each of them deserve millions. It didn’t even have a cap on damages.

It would make every business operating in New York uninsurable for no reason.

Historically people vote down the party line for offices such as the DA. I’d imagine people are going to take these votes more seriously going forward.

Agreed but he did win and demographically NYC has a tad larger voting number than the rest of New York

Please. Bail is not to control suspects before sentencing. This governor's prescription to crime is to go back to a repressible guilty until proven innocent state.
Buffalo notwithstanding our colonial divisions are rude reminders of what not to do. Holding the accused until time served is not a criminal justice system. Bail reform brought us out of the septic system that is our denial of what we must do.

Our institutions promote safety and adherence to the law. Our schools and colleges educate reform practical ambition into success.

Our prisons only promote injustice and violence and are the lost causes of civilized rule. To put, in the hands of judges the exercise of prejudgements is to finish equality.

Bail only frightens and culls the entire population. We started the long walk towards an enabled democracy. Why stop now?

Mayor Adams and Kathy Hocul are uniquely disqualified to rein the potential of free and enabled electorate. Both are subject to rabbit holes and pitfalls.

Don't drink the Kool aid. It's spoiled.

> And before ANYONE says "well *insert number" people support it", I don't care. Not everyone knows the law and most people operate based on what they think the law is. But I digress.

DEFINITELY must have missed this part in your quest to be right.

Also the "Tough on crime" and "War on Drugs" legacy conservative policies and a cornerstone of ANYTHING they talk about. So I stand by my comments.

When I make up whatever facts suit my predetermined conclusion, I also find that arguments are easy to win!

Failed? Has the crime not been constantly falling from the 80's? It started to pick up on again due to policy change. Data is clear

I know about this. Unfortunately I think you misunderstand what "wrongfully arrested" means here. It means you were arrested and/or convicted for a cringe you did not commit. If the DA has evidence that they claim link you to the crime insert Central Park 5, Richard Rosario, etc then this law wouldn't apply. Also everyone doesn't know if this law (and often public defenders as agents of the state pressure innocent people to take deals). There are too many moving parts. The system is broken and running back to something that doesn't work is not the best move.

Gaslighting much?

Only reason they care now, is the voters are fed up, and voting them out of office.

Even the most radical left is not surprised by this anymore.

Let’s see if the politicians will dig in and continue defending the status quo.

What do you think gaslighting means? This article is referencing a single poll. The same poll also indicated a majority of voters support a larger tax in millionaires. They're cherry picking the information they want.

Wrong.

Crime as a whole rose nationally during COVID. It's disingenuous (and incorrect) to imply that the increase in crime here is solely because of bail reform when crime also increased in non-bail reform states/cities.

Yep. A lot of people don't even know what bail is, especially that it's not punitive, and opportunistic politicians and media like the Post capitalize on that. You'll hear the same talking points - 'no consequences for criminals', 'they'll be out in a few hours', 'no consequences for crimes', 'soft on crime' etc but if you ask the people parroting those lines they're fed, how many of them could tell you what bail is, what its function is, what charges qualify, (and importantly under bail reform, the MANY charges that don't qualify for no bail)?

As well as the facts that arraigned suspects need to be tried, that they are legally innocent until proven guilty, that punishment comes after a conviction (or plea deal, because that's where 90%+ of convictions happen).

Too many people think that an arrest means guilty, when that's not how the legal system works, and also, the wrong people are sometimes arrested. The cops are among those saying this misinformation loudly, saying their hands are tied, can't do their jobs, etc when they often slack off and refuse to do their job (a local chain that has had theft can't rely on the cops coming to take their reports), and part of their job is working to provide the DA with enough evidence to prove their cases.

people especially women dont like surprise beatings? could've fooled me

[deleted]

I would answer this but the person right below you (above this answer) answered what I would have said.

Thank you. I have nothing to add. You're right on the money here.

Poll: New Yorkers back bail changes, millionaires tax

It's literally the same poll. U mad?

I think people fail to realize the backlash against jails happened during covid. Sickness was spreading through the every correctional facility in the state and starting seeping into the police department, then the towns that were near them. NYS funding was being redirected from corrections to public health and people were suing the city and state. It became a legal issue and exposed all the cracks in already corrupt system. Prisons and jails were being closed down, prisoners, correction officers and legal staff were dying. It was a mess. I remember when they released thousands of criminals onto the streets they just didn't have the means to hold them. People would rather have this conversation because it diverts from the reality of mayhem that the pandemic caused.

This is the problem that DAs have been screaming about. The legislature burdened the offices with discovery reforms that required significant staff and technology improvements and offered 0 dollars in assistance to implement it.

Bail reform and discovery reforms have been and will continue to be the right ideas.

But writing a whole new legal system into place on a midnight deadline at 11:58 is never a good idea.

I worked at a DAs office, I dealt with bail reform, discovery reform and even FOIL.

It all doesn’t matter if the laws are poorly written at the last minute and involve massive staffing and technological advancement with NO MONEY to make it happen.

Obvious bot

You’ll see a huge shift in the Asian and Jewish vote soon. They are tired of seeing criminals on the streets. Just watch

I don't think you know what that means.

> We've tried the "tough on crime" and "War on Drugs" angle for 40+ years

And all we got to show for it is the lowest murder rate in almost a century.

It's simple physics, though. If someone is locked in a secure box away from the general public, their ability to inflict injury upon said public drops to zero.

> I don't know that 2 years is enough to undo decades of terrible conservative policies.

We were never truly "tough on crime." It's time to try to Singapore model, enough is enough.

You can't just hand-wave away the will of a significant majority of all voters because they don't have NYU law degrees. Luckily it doesn't matter if you don't care what the majority of residents of this state want, we still live in a democracy and the majority rules.

We had our chance with Zeldin. He came so close, but a majority of voters would rather continue living under more crime than potentially be called racist. Also he wouldn't be trying to take away our natural gas heating and stoves, as an added bonus.

We need to get rid of bail bondsmen

1. they inflate the amount of bail necessary by a ridiculous amount

2. they keep their fee no matter what

Just set bail to be a sufficient amount to keep a person from running & return it all in full when they show up to court. There is no reason a person should pay a bail bondsmen 10k to cover their 500k bail.

Bail bondsmen shouldn't be picking up bail-jumpers either. That should be law enforcement's job.

TLDR

Bail is just supposed to ensure people show up to court & make it too expensive onerous to run.

It's not a fee for the privilege to waiting for trial outside jail.

They should get the staff and funds. And keep discovery regardless because it's the right thing to do.

Crime as a whole rose nationally when it got decriminalized.

Put the adults back in charge.

I put my larger thoughts in a comment below. I’m not saying get rid of it, tweak it and make money available for it.

It’s all part of the green new deal - connect the revolving door of justice to a generator and it will power the entire state!

It showed the first time offenders there is zero consequence consequence and turns them into 100th time offenders.

I totally agree. Discovery needs to be kept, but it was a massive oversight to not provide the staffing and funding to make it feasible. Our court system has always been understaffed and underfunded and that alone has caused most of the delays and backlogs in the system. It's a shame.

I mean is obvious that this is a policy that most New Yorkers and liberals in general support. I don’t get the point of people being a contrarian on this

>come up with a policy devoid of politics

>policy

>devoid

>of politics

lol

Violent Crime is down for the year , and mostly flat on all other stats . Zeldin had some good proposals but I don’t think he would have made a difference other than firing Bragg. If Albany makes these changes , they will avoid losing in the next election. Democrats are just doing the smart thing here , otherwise they will get wiped out if they can’t listen to the polls

-4 lol soooooo majority didn’t vote them in? Huh

I have no faith anything will change. TPTB dont give a shit. They have no reason to. They are not traveling the subways, streets on thier own like us. It will never be thier problem. Most we get after a serious crime that makes the news is a PR statement about making change, that will never arrive. They continue to clown us all. Its sickening to think about really.

Most Americans in general. But bootlicker/I’ll be a millionaire one day really!!! types are going to do what they do.

Whataboutism

The millionaires will just move their residency to another state. Same thing happened with France except they moved to a different country. All that money affords them hyper-mobility.

Soon? It already happened. These “reforms” are a big reason republicans won so many house seats in NY.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/nyregion/new-york-crime-stats.html

Certain crimes are up, it’s just shooting and homicides that are down

Like when a right wing news outlet picks and chooses which poll results to write about from the exact same poll, because one results doesn't meld with their world views?

Either you don't actually live here or you haven't been keeping up with the news over the past few years

France is #6 in the list of countries with the most millionaires.

But, sure, they're a third world country now because all the millionaires are gone because they're asked to pay their fair share.

The system will always be flawed with this law. When you give a defendant the chance to dismiss a case because the prosecution didn’t turn over the memobook for the 6th officer who responded to a scene, the defense is going to file a motion to dismiss. Then that takes months to resolve, slowing down the case, and clogging the courts further. Now prosecutors are so busy all cases are being plead down, and nobody has time for trial, so tons of discovery is being shared so nobody goes to trial.

In the same way the bail law gives judges no discretion, the discovery law gives judges no discretion to weigh the importance/prejudice of any items not turned over.

Nobody is saying NY should go back to the old ways for discovery, but there are other states that have balanced criminal discovery in a way that doesn’t result in the dismissals NY has.

No, that’s just choosing to write about one topic and not another. Whataboutism is you posting about an unrelated topic in the comments.

Those rich people are too smart to pay more just to stay home in the city they love! It’s gonna be a ghost town, I tell ya!

Discovery of relevant information to the case is the right and ethnical thing to do vs right now chasing and bogging down the system chasing irrelevant info that don't matter/change the case but subject entire case to dismissal on a short arbitrary deadline that was setup to fail is insane

You telling me its important to cases to collect the log books and officer complaints/work history of cops that show up and left never saw anything/interacted with victim/perp/witness/anyone is relevant details to waste resources on? and the people not even calling them as a witness. All you creating is mindless paperwork for nothing. No staff/resource in the world can cover that waste of time

Why the hell can't they talk about this outside of budget negotiations? These idiots need to be voted out of office. The number one job of government, first and foremost, is to protect citizens and their property. If those in charge don't see that there are serious problems (that they've caused) and and need remediation then they shouldn't be in the job anymore.

Before you start spouting hyperboles and crap you have no idea of what you're talking about. Try educating yourself.

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/#:~:text=The%20tax%20%E2%80%93%20called%20the%20ISF,on%20assets%20over%20%E2%82%AC10m).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_tax_on_wealth

Europe tried a wealth tax. It didn't work and that's why only 3 European countries still have one. They share the same problem we have. Millionaires can just move to another state (or country in Europe).

France lost billions of dollars in potential tax revenue and the average family impacted by the tax paid a paltry sum of around 2,000 euros.

Tax people enough and they'll leave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_tax_on_wealth

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/#:~:text=The%20tax%20%E2%80%93%20called%20the%20ISF,on%20assets%20over%20%E2%82%AC10m).

arent logbooks digital now? they were starting to be done digitally when i worked for the DA so im not seeing how that’s difficult. really the only difficult thing in my experience was repeatedly having to remind officers to email me their logbooks

Who gets to decide what is relevant? And why should it be the prosecution? Everyone deserves to see EVERY DETAIL in a case against them.

It's not unrelated because it's from the same Siena poll and other news outlets have reported both of these statistics together - but the Post chose to ignore that.

If a system required defendants to have one hand tied behind their backs for everything to work properly, it was always a broken justice system.

Discovery laws are just. The issue is funding the court system. We need to pump way more $$ for staffing to handle the work they always should have been doing

judge, the jury....then let it go to trial....we arent even reaching that phase. we stuck arguing x is missing out of umpteen docs and want to toss entire case pretrial. you think that's fair? we are literally arguing at the pregame phase over someone the team don't even plan to put in the game

Said like a true plaintiff’s lawyer! Maybe we throw a bunch of the no-fault mills and PI attorneys in jail that are clogging the courts with soft tissue BS cases.

There’s still not evidence tying a rise in crime to bail reform and people’s opinions are almost exclusively influenced by the media they consume which has been on a non-stop campaign to reverse bail reform for years.

But yeah, let’s go back to the system that didn’t work for 40 years because you think this one didn’t work for what, 2?

Even though the rise in crime happened in states without bail reform too?

Statistics came out that there has been more recidivism amongst violent offenders since bail reform.

“The one exception was for bail-eligible people who were released following recent violent felony arrests. The rate of rearrests for that cohort of offenders increased slightly.”

https://gothamist.com/news/study-shows-those-released-under-nys-bail-reform-laws-are-less-likely-to-get-rearrested

I don’t think you actually read what I wrote because you’re not responding to it.

Again, the problem is not requiring more discovery, but imposing a penalty completely disproportionate to the items not turned over, especially when those items aren’t in the people’s possession.

Suddenly it will no longer be the most interesting city. I get it!

>you think that's fair

Yes. Because defendants have a right to see evidence in a case against them. The courts shouldn't be a trial mill. These are people's lives we are judging. And I certainly don't think we should trust a prosecutor to judge what evidence is valuable or not to the defense.

And as for the usual "millionaires will just move" "rejoinder," the wealthy want the prestigious NYC address. There's a reason why millionaires haven't flocked to Bayonne or Harrison, even though they'd certainly save a bundle on taxes.

the defense team should still have the opportunity to view it. again, as someone whose responsibility it was to collect logbooks, its not difficult. it takes like a minute at most to send

Rapes are also down , and the ones that are up are not up by that much .

>The cops are among those saying this misinformation loudly, saying their hands are tied, can't do their jobs, etc when they often slack off and refuse to do their job (a local chain that has had theft can't rely on the cops coming to take their reports)

The journalists are also complicit in this. Every time a cop claims their "hands are tied," the immediate response should be to ask the cop to explain how exactly the bail reform law "tied their hands." Which provision takes away cops' power to investigate? Which provision takes away cops' power to arrest? Which provision makes shoplifting "legal"?

The uncritical mainstream media narrative of bail reform "tying the hands of law enforcement" is one of the most in-your-face examples of propaganda - copaganda - I've ever seen.

Yet nothing will be done about. The only way politicians act on anything is when it hits them personally or close to home.

what evidence used against them? said missing piece not even called as a witness/evidence against the accused....there's a reason why it wasn't collected the first place and presented to court in timely manner...no one care for it...it was not important to case and not plan to use against accused

Despite ever increasing taxes on the wealthy in California (now up to 12% on the top tax brackets), California has seen an influx of millionaires moving in . . despite population loss in general.

Millionaire tax probably won't be a good policy, but ultimately what matters most in NY and NYC is cost of living (housing prices, utility prices, and transportation prices). That determines everything and is far more important than the tax structure.

Pandemic is over so we can start putting them back in jail.

> Seventy-two percent of Empire State residents support giving judges more discretion to set bail for those accused of serious crimes — with a breakdown of 76% of Democrats, 71% of independents and 69% of Republicans, according to the Siena College poll.

Correct me if I' wrong, but didn't the evidence show that giving judges "discretion" actually leads to more violent criminals getting out on bail. Just make the rules tougher and have judges enforce them.

Just make two options: no bail or no release. It’s not difficult.

Would you shut up man, we’ve done it your way too, for the 50 odd years preceding bail reform.

Shocking that bail reform doesn’t work in a vacuum, and we need a complete overhaul of our criminal justice system for it to truly work. The machine Democrats do not work for me or you or the “countless people hurt and murdered”, as if bail reform that has anything to do with the root causes of crime.

The same democrats you speak of are corporate stooges who do not give a shit about you

>It's time to try to Singapore model, enough is enough.

You mean the "Singapore model" of having 80% of the city's population living in high-quality public housing, supported by a truly universal and affordable state-run healthcare system?

That could actually work. It would go a long way toward providing increased stability and, as a result, reducing crime.

But somehow I feel like you're referring more to things like putting people in jail for selling gum, downloading porn or criticizing the Mayor.

> We've tried the "tough on crime" and "War on Drugs" angle for 40+ years.

Not a fan of the war on drugs, but "tough on crime" over the last 40 years or so has been pretty effective. Homicide rate basically cut in half since the early 90s. Violent crime in cities like NYC and LA down like 80% off their peaks. It's so weird to see people act like the last few decades have been abject failures in policing. Crime rates are a many-decade lows. Incarceration rate is at its lowest point since the mid 90s.

They dont have new millionaires moving in. They HAD new millionaires being MADE, because silicon valley had a shit ton of IPOs before the bubble crashed, and lots of people become millionaires thru their options. A large portion of those newly minted milionaires left. And silicon valley isnt going to minting many millionaires the next few years.

Okay, well COVID is over for most sane people now and has been for about a year. How do we address the issue of elevated levels of crime in this city?

The wealthy own multiple homes. They can have a NYC address and just live there less than 182 days and avoid NYS and NYC income taxes.

I dont think most people realized what Braggs policies were. He wont be re-elected.

Yes bc every business carries the same risks causing untimely death to others. We aren't talking about suing any random innocent business for no reason....we are talking about a specific entities that caused the unjust death of someone

This idea is not new. There is an entire cottage industry of legal and accounting professionals dedicated to helping the wealthy prove that they haven't exceeded 182 days in NYS.

You will be glad to hear they haven’t come out in full force yet. It’s only the beginning. Liberal policies do nothing for the Asian American communities. They use to all campaign for blue. They haven’t openly come out to campaign red but they sure as hell will over the next couple of years

• Crime on our elders and seeing the accused being let out even after countless footage being shared around. It is demoralizing to continually see

• Specialized High Schools mean nothing now and more and more leave the city to go into Long Island

• Jails and homeless shelters being built right in our Chinatown

We are all about mind your own business but now it’s affecting our business

Asians only care about education and safety. Each ethic group have their own agendas and the liberals definitely do not support the Asian community at all. The one good thing about America is the democracy and that each person gets the vote for what they believe in. I do not blame anyone for voting the way they do based off of what they believe and what benefits them. At the same time they can not ignore why Asians will stop supporting progressive reform. Majority wins and that’s how it should be. Either prove they care or watch the change

I hope liberal leaders read this or scroll through Reddit because this is on you guys for alienating our voice and vote. Be afraid our numbers are growing

Down voting me won’t change the sentiment. You’ll see us in full force coming soon. Numbers won’t lie

I live here and am familiar with the NYPost-type coverage, which usually cherry-picks examples and glosses over important details. You’re reacting, not thinking.

> When there are many people walking the streets with 100+ arrests, I think it's safe to conclude there is something wrong with bail

Absolutely, I fully agree with this deal. Singapore's HDB Scheme of public housing is one of the most successful urban planning programs in modern history. But you should understand what you are suggesting, because it is probably different than how you're envisioning it.

It is important to understand that Singapore's HDB system is truly meritocratic, it isn't just a handout of free housing, but rather a form of lend-lease whereby Singapore citizens can apply for subsidized housing after meeting social criteria such as being married, and not having been convicted of a serious crime, and agreeing to abide by the rules and regulations of the housing program and the state, which are vigorously enforced by a network of community patrols and cameras. Also, married citizens who have more than two children are given priority.

If we couple this program with Singapore's robust and judicious use of corporal punishment (caning) for crimes such as vandalism and sexual assault, and the death penalty for drug dealing, then I really think we might be off to a good start. I would love to see NYCHA housing being as judiciously and equitably dispensed to good virtuous citizens as are Singapore's HDB flats, and I would love to see those who piss in and graffiti the NYCHA elevators and stairwells get the cane, and I would love to see those who deal drugs in the NYCHA halls get the death penalty.

[deleted]

>France lost billions of dollars in potential tax revenue and the average family impacted by the tax paid a paltry sum of around 2,000 euros.

Does that make sense to you? You really think that a Billionaire is going to uproot his and his family's life for a 2K tax increase? I mean you can't even get a used Toyota corolla for 2k.

[deleted]

Ridicules the idea that higher taxes will chase away millionaires.

Agrees that it's commons for millionaires to be chased away for at least half a year from ny to avoid taxes.

Gold.

Progressives think you shouldn’t be able to pay your way out of jail. Progressives are right about this. Bail is stupid. Either you are a danger to those around you, or you aren’t. Whether you are able to pay or not, should have no bearing on whether you are a threat.

Not hard. If reforms need to be made around the edges, we are in favor of that. No such thing as a perfect justice system. Doesn’t mean New Yorkers think the old bail system made any fucking sense.

> average

The wealthy folks who are already carefully tracking their days in NYS will continue doing that even if their taxes stay the same. And they will continue doing that even if NYC taxes fall dramatically. They will continue doing it unless NYC's taxes fall to Sioux Falls, SD levels, which is simply not realistic. So this group of people can be entirely discounted in any talk of income tax policy. They are not going to change their residency under any realistic income tax model.

The wealthy folks who are spending 183+ days per year in NYC now are going to keep doing that even if their taxes go up a few percent. This group of people wants to spend 183+ days per year in NYC and can afford to do so. These folks also aren't going to change their residency under any realistic income tax model.

The previous commenter suggested that there is a group of wealthy folks who will suddenly "discover" the 183-day rule if taxes go up a few percent. The idea that there is any sizable number of wealthy folks whose accountants and lawyers haven't told them about the 183-day rule years ago is ludicrous.

Computer technology got us the lowest murder rate in a century.

What, you can't just impute causation to whatever has a correlation?

Studied directly, the war on drugs has been an epic disaster, and crime fell entirely independent of it.

The murder rate fell despite the war on drugs funneling trillions to gangs and cartels, making them more powerful than ever.

NY and NYC is one of the highest taxed places to live in the U.S.. Billionaires and Millionaires can choose to move right now if they wanted to and yet, NYC has the highest number of billionaires, not just in the country, but in the world. Something tells me we have some leeway to tax them more.

Yep, those high murder states of Missouri, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, what with all their progressive bail reform. . .

oh wait. . .

> Computer technology got us the lowest murder rate in a century.

COMPSTAT certainly helped.

I guess the difference here is that "War on Drugs" directly funneled money into police. It isn't tangential. It's directly related.

Now, if you want to say the War on Drugs had massive amounts of waste and other related societal harms, then sure. Over-incarceration, "stop-and-frisk" violations, etc.

Shhh! They choose to believe alternative facts, like NY's crime is out of control and isn't as peaceful and ordered as safe cities without bail reform, like St. Louis, New Orleans, Baton Rouge, or Kansas City.

You didn't read all of what was written, did you?

We already have statues that compensate families for wrongful death. It’s a horribly written law that would let random cousins, uncles, nephews sue without limitation. And would dramatically increase the costs of litigation for every lawsuit, no matter how frivolous. We’re suddenly going to monetize grief for extended family when someone dies? The only people that would get rich from this are plaintiff’s attorneys.

Who is asking for this exactly?

I'm gonna just say it, bail reform is a good idea and we should backtrack on it. What we should do is have a conversation and legislation around holding people in jail based on recidivism and dangerousness. Obviously there were previous issues with those standards being racist but let's fix that and make them more clear-cut and not let people with multiple violent charges back in the street while awaiting trial.

Every other developed country currently also has their lowest murder rate in a century. But they are locking up 10x fewer people than the US is.

In fact, despite by far having the highest prison population of any country (and it's not even close), the US still has the highest homicide rates of any developed country.

It's almost as if it's not working at all. If locking more people up was working, then the US should have the lowest crime rates of developed countries, not the highest.

Crime rates in all other countries dropped just like it did in the US. But they didn't use a "tough on crime" approach to achieve it.

The more likely explanation for why both the US and other countries saw declining crime rates is the banning of lead gasoline and improvements in economic prosperity.

To criminologists, it is also no surprise that crime has been up since the pandemic. Crime rates also saw an uptick during the 2008 financial crisis.

Bad economic times = more crime. Other countries are experiencing a similar uptick in crime without any "bail reform". Surely the recent uptick in crime in Finland isn't caused by NY bail reform, is it?

>How do we address the issue of elevated levels of crime in this city?

Let's do that!

Criminologists have been in near uniform agreement for a while now: the biggest cause of crime is poverty.

So if you have any proposals on how to reduce poverty, I'd love to hear them

> We were never truly "tough on crime."

-> US literally has a 10x higher incarceration rate than Germany
-> US was never tough on crime

You're insane

This^

>Asians only care about education and safety. Each ethic group have their own agendas and the liberals definitely do not support the Asian community at all

Its funny how the biggest losses were in Southern Brooklyn which are also communities like Russians, Jews, etc that also care mostly about education and safety.

Bring back the 3 strike's law but adjust it for modern times

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It was not important to the prosecution. That doesn't mean it's not important to the defense. Given the track record of prosecutors withholding evidence from the defense, I would never trust the word of a prosecutor on what is relevant or not.

I understand that, unfortunately he ran on those policies but since it’s easier to go dem all the way down the ticket instead of researching policies, this is where we are as a state.

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Explain, genius. Why do you think your wealth should have any bearing on the conditions of your life as you await trial?

Why? You think wealthy people should be able to pay their way out of jail?

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Then why is it one of the "stupidest takes i've ever seen?" Which part of it was stupid?

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You're incorrect.

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The wealth tax worked fine, it was just abolished when a right wing government came to power.

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Of course neither the article nor the survey even mention what chang they're advocating for, just "it's tough on crime!"

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> Time to give control of the party back to the sane democrats.

Time to give it back to the adults. The NYU student progressives have no life experience, no sense of nuance, and laughably poor critical thinking skills and shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power for their own good and the good of everyone else.

how is it important for the defense for statements for someone not even present at the crime/incident? seriously running circles...its only important bc they can claim failure to dot the I to toss entire case.

again...something like this shouldn't toss the entire case since entire prosecution not based on it. let it go to trial, let the jury decide? whats the fear? you get your day in court same with the people vs tossing things on technicality. just don't allow it as evidence against the accused...that's the fair approach. but nope...dolts like you think otherwise

I didn't say incarceration

>We already have statues that compensate families for wrongful

Not enough especially since the laws written over 100 yrs ago

>Who is asking for this exactly? victim who are kids and elderly for one since current financial compensation reflects on their earning potential...which they have none

Overwhelming majority of people do not know what bail is.