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Clavister t1_jak2z1x wrote

In 1987, I was a junior at Newtown High School in Elmhurst, Queens. Mayor Krotch came to our school to give us a plaque for being the most ethnically diverse school in Queens, which had to have meant that we were the most ethnically diverse school in the whole goddamn country. To his credit, he was willing to answer some questions from our student journalist body. One student asked why our school was so crowded, and he responded like a politician would, saying "Well, everybody wants to go to Newtown, don't you want to go to Newtown"? We booed him for giving a bullshit politician answer. I feel it is part of my proud heritage as a New Yorker that I got to personally boo the mayor when I wasn't even old enough to vote for him yet.

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JaredSeth t1_jak53vp wrote

>Mayor Krotch

Whether or not this was intentional, bravo.

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Clavister t1_jak9o4i wrote

It certainly was intentional, that was an easy and common transformation of his name at the time

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NoNameComputers t1_jal0wo1 wrote

Having lived out of NYC for a while, this story made me both proud and homesick.

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AmadeusZull t1_jal1dos wrote

Newtown class of 2000 reporting in. It was so crowded we had freshmen year of highschool in some building on horrace and 108th st that had no windows. I think that building is some vocational or magnet school now if you pass it on the LIE. That freshmen year sucked.

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Clavister t1_jalyq7a wrote

The Newtown Annex was used for freshmen back when I got there in 1984, too. It did indeed suck. Still way better than junior high.

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AmadeusZull t1_jaovim3 wrote

Wow I haven't heard that name in a while and had no clue it existed back then too.

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SolitaryMarmot t1_jamcyg4 wrote

That's where I would have gone if my family didn't white flight me out of the city between the ages 6 and 16. I feel cheated.

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jar02xf wrote

The ones that got cheated were the ones that didn't leave during white flight, including African Americans.

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[deleted] t1_jamomkk wrote

[deleted]

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Clavister t1_jamthqq wrote

I didn't really keep track of who went where. I'd say it was an average NYC public high school, barely any budget. But I only had my own experience...

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jarjrqa wrote

> We booed him for giving a bullshit politician answer. I feel it is part of my proud heritage as a New Yorker that I got to personally boo the mayor when I wasn't even old enough to vote for him yet.

This is fantastic.

3

weedandboobs t1_jajt4nx wrote

Could write another article with the same data about gentrification destroying neighborhoods and black flight.

Fun with numbers!

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TizonaBlu t1_janjhkp wrote

I know this is unpopular but gentrification is what brought lower crime rate, stores, and other amenities into neighborhoods that didn’t have them.

People should see West Chelsea before it was gentrified, it was just warehouses and gas stations.

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LongIsland1995 t1_janklez wrote

Literally the only bad thing is the increased rents (and the consequences of that)

But landlords are jacking up rents even in places like Fordham Heights (for instance) where there is zero gentrification, so you may as well get some benefit out of it.

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jar0hvq wrote

When poor people move you merely displace crime, you don't fix it. It's no wonder that more buying power brings more amenities.

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therealowlman t1_jb4zl9y wrote

People prefer to live and establish roots near their own. That’s just normal in any big diverse city.

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jb4zwkp wrote

It's not because they move voluntarily, it's because the cost of everything has gone up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-black-harlem.html

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therealowlman t1_jb51sbx wrote

Don’t know about that community but in general most communities live close before gentrification.

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jb51z58 wrote

Before. But the reason they leave is not to be amongst themselves, it's because they can't afford it. That's the whole argument, displacement.

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TheAJx t1_jal7b1g wrote

It's not white gentrifiers that are driving black New Yorkers out. It's Hispanics ones.

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cC2Panda t1_jame7r0 wrote

It's a lack of development which we can mostly blame on rich white people. Blaming Hispanic people is like folks blaming Koreans in LA in the 80s and early 90s. Mega wealthy slumlords like Donald Sterling were at the root of it then and they are at the root of the problem now.

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TheAJx t1_jamot32 wrote

Was it white people that killed this housing development in Harlem??

The facts remain. The white population in NY has declined every decade. The hispanic and Asian population has increased. Ergo, if you want to claim someone is driving out black New Yorkers, then you need to actually look at the populations that are growing.

But putting blame on anyone for moving in and out is stupid and backward as fuck.

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survive_los_angeles t1_jamthnz wrote

why does it have to be blame? housing problems can be fixed without always trying to turn it into an ethnic blame game -- that just clouds things and makes things hard to fix.

Things change, people move and migrate as their needs want or dreams dictate or economic realities come into view.

It be alot easier to navigate this without painting it as ethnic struggles - when of course.. its always been just a transitional class undulations in housing.

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TizonaBlu t1_janjrp7 wrote

I mean, Hispanic are 18% of US population, blacks are 12%. Black people were always over represented in NYC. If anything, it makes sense there are more Hispanics in NY now.

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TheAJx t1_jao7m4e wrote

I don't have any comment on what group should have what percent on all that. Live and let live.

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TizonaBlu t1_jao7ybz wrote

I mean, I didn't say any race should be any percentage. If anything the person I was responding to is talking about racial quota more. I'm simply stating that decreasing in black population doesn't seem out of the normal in terms of national demography.

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TheAJx t1_jao9ni7 wrote

I agree with you. It's not exactly a surprise that population demographic are shifting. And its not always evil rich white people's fault.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jankaok wrote

Rich white people are the ones who want development. Who do you think is moving into those glass monstrosities?

−4

cC2Panda t1_janmqf5 wrote

They want a specific type of luxury development in specific areas, they don't want to fund any sort of actual large scale affordable housing that we actually need.

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LongIsland1995 t1_janmxfl wrote

I think the days of NYCHA towers being built are long gone. And the mixed income housing seems like a scam.

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cC2Panda t1_janotiv wrote

I've advocated it here before but what I'd really like to see is utilitarian housing projects but have it geared towards middle class people instead of filling it up with low income households. One of the biggest failures of housing projects like Pruitt-Igoe in the past is that the maintenance and upkeep are dependent on the people most vulnerable to market fluctuations, so every downturn in the economy sees the buildings fall into disrepair and those with means to get out do and it's a downward spiral.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jantak1 wrote

Isn't that what Mitchell Lama is?

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cC2Panda t1_jaoiq86 wrote

It gets middle class people into projects most of which were originally built for low income housing. I want tens of thousands of units to be built for the express purpose of middle class rent to ownership.

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clorox2 t1_jakhlm8 wrote

Washington Heights resident checking in. We’ve got it all. White, black, Dominicans, Russians, Jews, even a few Asians. I like it up here.

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damnatio_memoriae t1_jalgknx wrote

washington heights is awesome but it feels like it's on the cusp of ruin.

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payeco t1_jalt89j wrote

Care to expand? I haven’t been up there in years.

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clorox2 t1_jamc1np wrote

Maybe he means in the cusp of gentrification, which would be accurate.

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survive_los_angeles t1_jamt5dq wrote

everything changes. its the totality

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midtownguy70 t1_jank65c wrote

This is the kind of change that we humans can actually guide and control. It is not an asteroid or earthquake. This is top-down gentrification, not bottom up. It is the result of zoning changes and decisions made largely at the level of local and state government. Same way they encouraged white flight in the other direction during the days of redlining.

Not all change is good. If we just throw up our arms at everything and say "change happens" we aren't taking control of our destiny or protecting what we have.

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iv2892 t1_jamf0ur wrote

I was there last Saturday and it never felt more alive , what do you mean ?

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LongIsland1995 t1_janjtot wrote

If you mean too many white folk, they seem to stay mostly to the West of Broadway.

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lexszn t1_jaqtr9l wrote

yup. anything west of broadway from 163rd all the way up to the cloisters

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Everyoneeatshere t1_jakc8n1 wrote

Real life experience says otherwise. NYC is very much segregated esp for those who grew up here. Perhaps for ppl who move here in adulthood it’s a different experience

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LongIsland1995 t1_jakl5y1 wrote

Yeah but it was always like that.

And to be honest it's more complicated than that. Blacks and Latinos live together all over the Bronx, uptown Manhattan, Bushwick, parts of Queens like Jamaica. Asians and Latinos live in the same neighborhoods in much of Western/Central Queens. Whites and Asians live together in Northeast Queens.

So there are plenty of neighborhoods where at least 2 or 3 racial groups live together, but if you're looking for some sort of Sesame Street situation where a large number of whites, blacks, Latinos, and Asians all live together and interact, you won't find it.

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Everyoneeatshere t1_jaklemv wrote

All you have to do is take a look at the school cafeteria and see where the kids sit.

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cC2Panda t1_jamfcrz wrote

Kids migrate towards people they identify with most it happens everywhere. My wife went to a school that taught in English in India but the social groups split mostly on preferred languages from the outset and stayed that way all the way through. Kids that spoke Marathi were a clique, Hindi were a clique, Urdu another, and English it's own. So even within the same religion, castes and family wealth cliques formed and stayed based primarily on childhood language skills.

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Everyoneeatshere t1_jamfmin wrote

So what you are saying is segregated whether by choice or not

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cC2Panda t1_jami0w5 wrote

At the very least it takes a concerted effort not to fall into segregated cliques. There are social groups that actually do tend to be more diverse but they tend to be considered outsiders. Like when I was younger the mix of teens hanging out at Chinatown Fair playing Capcom vs SNK 2 with each other was way less segregated on race and instead just a group of gamer geeks.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jankta3 wrote

I can vouch for this. In high school, the nerdy kids (the type to do Naruto runs) had very diverse friend groups and still do.

While the "normies" mostly stuck to their own racial group.

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Rottimer t1_jamfagq wrote

Just look at the school, period. A lot of families in these diverse areas will not send their kids to the public schools.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jaklq4v wrote

I hear that even though a lot of high schools are diverse on paper, they are still are pretty segregated. I didn't go to HS in the boroughs but my experience was like that.

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survive_los_angeles t1_jamto7s wrote

yes you can now. brooklyn , bronx and queens.

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LongIsland1995 t1_janj408 wrote

Lol, where?

The only parts of the Bronx with a lot of white people are either wealthier neighborhoods like Riverdale without many minorities, or neighborhoods that are in the process of white flight.

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survive_los_angeles t1_janjlym wrote

thats not what i've seen. Re bronx. Bronx is a big place. it might not just be in the areas you frequent yet

Also Fort Green projects has a influx of Chinese people who qualified for NYCHA moving in - changing the face of that area for the next couple of decades.

Even knocking the church down in FGP / ingersoll houses

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LongIsland1995 t1_jankzqq wrote

I've been all over the South Bronx and West Bronx and have seen few white people. I know there are plenty in Riverdale and Country Club, but how many black people live there?

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survive_los_angeles t1_janxo7x wrote

damn bro. im not even an expert at the Bronx - I am on the Brooklyn side and have seen all types of people and surprising changes to some neighborhoods.. even as we speak they are renovating the bronx museum for 2025 - the influx of people who want to / need to live in the city are finding bronx an alternative -- and some parts that are still social deserts are having small hip places open up to add a new layer of culture which will bring more people to make entire neighborhoods come back alive

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newestindustry t1_jamu2he wrote

I don’t think that’s really true, the Lower East Side being the most obvious example. There are plenty of places in the outer boroughs with everyone.

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LongIsland1995 t1_janiyok wrote

That's not a great example, the black population in the LES mostly lives in the housing projects.

I will give you though, that people of all backgrounds hang out in the LES.

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whata2021 t1_jakp22c wrote

Latinos aren’t a racial group

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LongIsland1995 t1_jakr838 wrote

No, but they're viewed as a de facto racial group. And every Latino neighborhood in NYC is pan-Latino more or less anyway.

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CommonNotCommons t1_jakhvy0 wrote

Oh well if your anecdote can trump empirical research then I suppose I have no choice but to believe you

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BringMeInfo t1_jam2m4u wrote

That first sentence should read “Anecdotes say otherwise.”

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TizonaBlu t1_jank3xf wrote

It just depends on where you are, no? I’m in Manhattan and it can’t be more diverse everywhere.

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Everyoneeatshere t1_jankbfz wrote

How many are commuters nd how many actual live there. Do the ppl mingle or keep to themselves or within their group.

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rosecoo t1_jald94q wrote

We’re diverse because there’s no real border between ethnic enclaves lmao

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oldquas t1_jal6wg9 wrote

Born here and still in Brooklyn and even in its diversity It’s segregated to me. It’s so weird to walk the streets of Flatbush and not feel what I felt as a kid.

I mean as we grow things change, our perspectives change as well, but I really do miss the sense of diversity when it meant bartering recipes, taking in culture and looking out for your fellow foreigner who came here with the intent for more.

It’s one thing to be diverse and just that, but to be immersed in diversity is the difference.

The heart’s been transplanted.

It’s different now, I get it tho.

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oldquas t1_jal815e wrote

Also random thought: it’s weird when people move here and are scared of black & brown people. That’s like going to the movies and being scared of the seats.

Subpar analogy, but at least if you’re going to check out the movie off a good trailer, at least acknowledge the cast of the movie and the seats that has made it comfortable for you to enjoy the film aka frolic around the city.

I welcome everyone. Just don’t bring that prejudice shit with you fam.

All love.

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ugen2009 t1_jamzpeu wrote

I feel like you think this because you haven't been to an actually segregated city, like Atlanta. Imagine not seeing a black person in an area the size of Manhattan.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jalfls5 wrote

When was Flatbush more diverse? My mom grew up there as it was white flighting, so it was diverse for a bit but that didn't last too long.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jakkpg7 wrote

My mom went to school in Flatbush in the 70s and it was very diverse for a short period of time, but only because the middle of white flight. I figure the reverse is happening now in certain gentrifying neighborhoods.

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Loxodontox t1_jana4be wrote

Yeah, when I was growing up on Tiemann place next to the elevated 125th st 1 & 9—remember that one?—I was the one white boy around lol, but that was crack era. You wouldn’t even see many Hispanic people over there, no, but now it is quite diverse, though the gentrification above 125th by Columbia has radically changed things in addition

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Rottimer t1_jamelzj wrote

Now do the public schools.

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shep_pat t1_jamr8jq wrote

No shit. Have these people ever been other places?

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sakura5215 t1_jaln7u1 wrote

I’m proud that my sons high school is the most diverse in the city and almost perfectly matches the demographics of the student population. My neighborhood is not diverse though (UWS). It’s honestly uncomfortable that all the nannies and laborers are minorities and very few of the residents are. Every morning I come downstairs and there is a group of nannies waiting to go up and we only have white and a couple of Asians as residents. My son’s public elementary school was less diverse than my daughter’s private elementary school since they could choose their students. The only diversity in the public school was the children of supers who lived in their workplaces and a couple of adopted kids.

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Rottimer t1_jamgqbs wrote

The lack of diversity at public schools in the UWS is by design. There are very overcrowded schools in Harlem, with majority black students that borders the UWS. When DeBlasio’s DoE floated relieving that overcrowded school by redrawing the districts so some of those black students would be zoned for an under capacity UWS school, the very rich parents in the UWS blew a gasket and said some not so very subtle shit about black and Hispanic kids.

The DoE backed off.

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SolitaryMarmot t1_jamcaa4 wrote

That's why the upper west side is SUPER boring. I lived there in the late 90s for a bit and honestly my grandpa's condo development in Florida was more fun.

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TizonaBlu t1_jankh6k wrote

Uptown is boring period.

If you want diversity and actually a high amount of things to do, you need to be downtown.

Hell, the most expensive neighborhoods in NYC are downtown.

0

Enders_Sack t1_jamwtsx wrote

People don't realize how POC rarely interact with white people before college, if they even get to attend. I grew up here and the only white people I've ever interacted with were my teachers and maybe medical professionals.

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LongIsland1995 t1_janlt3h wrote

Yeah, I have asked a lot of black and Hispanic New Yorkers about this. They said they either knew literally zero white people growing up or maybe 1-2 token white kids.

Huge swaths of the city are like this, you can walk for probably miles in Eastern Brooklyn or The Bronx withour seeing a single white family.

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jar1801 wrote

This is me. No white people until college and working in an office. As a result, I know nothing about their interests and even if I do, I'm not interested. Makes for very awkward water cooler conversations.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jasq9lf wrote

Well there's always the transracial interests like sports and TV shows

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jasrnbz wrote

Was never exposed to those American sports growing up. The TV shows thing I kind of get but it's different interacting with the culture vs seeing it on television. I don't think there's two people that are the same in this thing, depends on how deep in your enclave you are.

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shikitohno t1_jaw2djf wrote

Yeah, this was me when I moved to the Bronx. I was in the same apartment for 11 years, and the only other white people I saw in my neighborhood were police, the odd school teacher commuting and the Mormon kids that got sent to evangelize around Highbridge and Mount Eden instead of at least getting a trip overseas out of their mission.

I would also say this study conflates living in the same neighborhood with actual diversity and integration in the community. Sure, my neighborhood had Dominicans, Mexicans, Africans, Haitians, African Americans, etc. all living in the same buildings, but they largely maintained their own segregation. One thing I think gets overlooked by better off white people who never actually live in these neighborhoods and only speak English is the amount of flagrant racism between minority groups. Hispanic groups vs Black people, Africans versus African Americans, then disputes within those groups as well.

A lot of the Bronx "gentrifying" just seems to me to be the real estate industry trying to manufacture it and raising prices hoping to get some idiots who'll fall for it. When I worked in Mott Haven, there were already buildings going up trying to charge $2500/month for a studio to live 6 blocks away from the train in the hood. There have been some hip businesses that opened up on Alexander and Bruckner, but you have literally a single hipster block where you see white people, then they hop in their cars and disappear.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jawt1ka wrote

Yeah for the white gentry crowd, the Bronx doesn't really offer anything that Brooklyn doesn't. It's no longer cheap.

That could change eventually, but right now I don't think it will gentrify the way Bed Stuy and Bushwick have.

And I agree with you that a lot of white people are oblivious to what race relations are actually like . It's like when boomers act like their neighborhood growing up was like Sesame Street, but fail to mention that this was because of white flight happening at an unthinkable pace.

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shikitohno t1_jawv38z wrote

It isn't cheap, and perhaps more importantly, it doesn't have the social life and other draws that Brooklyn does. Unless hipsters suddenly get into bachata and reggaetón, the Bronx largely lacks the sort of nightlife and businesses that might otherwise attract them in spite of the price.

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LongIsland1995 t1_jaxdqup wrote

Correct. There actually seems to be a lack of regular bar/pubs in most of the Bronx. That could change, but as of now it's nothing like even Bed Stuy in terms of nightlife.

Another thing is that most of the South Bronx was destroyed during the 1970s arson wave, and the buildings were replaced in the 80s and 90s with cheap looking Fedders houses. So it doesn't have that homey feel that Bed Stuy, Bushwick, Harlem, Washington Heights, etc. have. That's also why, in my opinion, Brownsville is of little interest to gentrifiers.

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Due_Masterpiece_3601 t1_jar11lm wrote

This was me. I had to learn white people culture when I started college in Manhattan. In my neighborhood you literally don't see white people unless they're sightseeing or traveling to a sporting event.

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tess_philly t1_janssnq wrote

This is what makes NYC the greatest city in the country to me. Consider other cities such as Chicago, which seem to only be getting worse in segregation (which, is shut down in any convo when I bring it up).

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Lou-Skunt4206969 t1_janzl4c wrote

Wonder how this subreddit will find something wrong with this

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SelfProclaimedGOAT13 t1_jao1bjk wrote

New York is very diverse, but it is the most segregated city in the world.

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Buteverysongislike t1_jajw00b wrote

Do we see this same diversity among building owners?

0

vanalla t1_jak0byf wrote

Diverse set of corporations, if that's what you mean.

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switch8000 t1_jakly5s wrote

Is this study the one that we voted on from our tax dollars funded last year? ugh

−4

HEIMDVLLR t1_jak62ip wrote

> Long-standing inner-city majority Black, Asian and Latino neighborhoods are becoming whiter, as the reverse occurred in traditionally white “semi-suburban” areas in outer boroughs.

no duh! It’s called gentrification. Now how many of those new neighbors speak to the people in the community? Won’t even make eye contact with you…

> The study, published by the Washington Post, found that for every 91 white friends a white American has, they have only one black friend, one Asian friend, one Latino friend, one mixed-race friend, and three friends of unknown race. Comparatively, the average black American has 8 white friends for every 83 black friends. - 75% of White People Can’t Even Use the ‘I’m Not Racist, I Have a Black Friend’ Defense

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TheAJx t1_jal7uwx wrote

>no duh! It’s called gentrification. Now how many of those new neighbors speak to the people in the community? Won’t even make eye contact with you…

You sound just like the racist neighbors I had that complained about my immigrant parents coming to their neighborhood.

The white population has declined every decade, including this last one. A few neighborhoods have seen some more white people moving in (which, given all the complaints about white flight and our supposed positive approach to desegration, shouldn't be a bad thing) and a bunch of neighborhoods have seen the white population decrease (and people of other races move in). That's normal.

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Rottimer t1_jamfqgh wrote

I feel you completely missed his point.

−8

TheAJx t1_jamlslb wrote

No, the poster had a bullshit point, which was "we don't more of those kind of people around."

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Rottimer t1_jammqlk wrote

Then you definitely missed his point. I did not read that in his comment at all.

−5

TheAJx t1_jamoa24 wrote

> Now how many of those new neighbors speak to the people in the community? Won’t even make eye contact with you…

"Now how many of those new neighbors speak to the people in the community? Won’t even make eye contact with you…"

You realize that white suburbanites make the exact same comment when minorities or low income folks move in to their neighborhoods? It's bullshit then, it's bullshit now. This is America, we share this place together.

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Rottimer t1_jang7rz wrote

>You realize that white suburbanites make the exact same comment when minorities or low income folks move into their neighborhoods. . .

No they don’t. Instead they repeatedly call the cops on any perceived offense and refuse to speak directly to their neighbors, similar to how some of these “gentrifiers” treat their neighbors of color that may have been in the neighborhood for decades. That’s not everyone, but it’s a significant number. And that’s what OP was complaining about. He never said they weren’t welcome.

But we all know how a lot of redditors get hard at wanting to paint minorities as “the real racists.”

−1

TheAJx t1_janmxhg wrote

> But we all know how a lot of redditors get hard at wanting to paint minorities as “the real racists.”

I'm not painting minorities as the real racists. Most minorities are chill just like most everyone else. I'm saying you're the real racist.

Anyways, you think anybody moving into the neighborhood, white or non-white, would want to interact with busybodies like you, measuring whether they looked at you the right way or if they acknowledged you appropriately enough. Fuck that.

2

HEIMDVLLR t1_jam50as wrote

So you think it’s okay that transplants move into a neighborhood and consciously not acknowledge their neighbors or even try to get to know anyone from the community?

The complaints about white flight were real. People moved away because they didn’t want to integrate, not because they were being priced out or couldn’t afford to live there anymore.

−11

TheAJx t1_jamreqn wrote

> So you think it’s okay that transplants move into a neighborhood and consciously not acknowledge their neighbors or even try to get to know anyone from the community? >

People should generally try to get to know their neighbors, of course. But that shouldn't be a precursor to getting to live somewhere. People need a place to live. The same comments you make about "transplants" not acknowledging their neighbors is the same one that white suburbanites make when minorities, immigrants or low-income people move into their neighborhoods. It's bullshit.

11

siposiposipo t1_jakci2i wrote

Damn who has 91 friends? 😢

I worked many years with White transplants in Bushwick and Bed Stuy. The type that are all about getting into social heaven, being perceived as accepting. They never had an answer when asked about gentrification. Just the most entitled people.

−17

paulwhitedotnyc t1_jaki6qy wrote

How dare they move to a neighborhood they can afford and attempt to be polite and accepting of their new neighbors, especially with the color skin they have.

New York is so easy to afford, they could live anywhere they want, and then to not even be able to explain the actions of the millions of other people that look like them?! Disgusting!

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Rottimer t1_jamg2y3 wrote

The point is that people complain that many of these “gentrifiers” for lack of a better term, aren’t accepting of their new neighbors and aren’t interested in getting to know them.

−5

LongIsland1995 t1_jakkfeg wrote

I know a Puerto Rican guy from Bushwick who actually prefers the white transplants over the native white New Yorkers from places like Glendale and Maspeth. He said the former are fun to hang out with while the latter he remembers being racist when he was growing up.

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michaelmvm t1_jal9nvd wrote

well yeah theyre old white people from glendale and maspeth, would you expect them not to be racist lmao

3