volkommm t1_j7kh2rx wrote
Reply to comment by youcantfindoutwhoiam in MTA spent twice as much on Second Ave subway consultants as it did on its construction by NYY657545
Cost per rider for MTA projects is significantly lower than most of the European projects people compare to. It's like being surprised that a bus costs 10 times as much as your car. "But my smart car cost 30 grand!"
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kiici wrote
(actual facts and prices at the bottom) You're so wrong, and I'm tired of people spreading misinformation, please scroll down to compare actual prices. But I assume you're saying that from the US having not experienced the Parisian subway system for example. You're comparing single ride tickets. This is for tourists, and they're still lower, but do you know that weekly and monthly passes are SIGNIFICANTLY lower to advantage residents? Like, you get an actual discount for getting a weekly or monthly pass where in NY it's basically the regular price of 2 rides a day (at the price of the NY unlimited MetroCard you get about 46 rides at regular price, basically 2 commutes a day for 23 days AKA the number of business days in a month...)
But let's actually compare the facts:
- NY single ride: $2.75
- NY monthly pass: $127
- Paris single ride: 2.10€
- Paris navigo monthly pass: 84,10€ (all zones including suburbs) and it can go as low as 72.90€ if you only go two zones. Oh, and you can choose to buy it annually which make sit only 77€ a month.
volkommm t1_j7kipy1 wrote
Cost of project per rider who uses that project. Not cost per ticket.
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kow1y wrote
Again, wrong. I mean, that's barely true if you only count the subway system inside Paris, which would compare to the weekly ridership of the NY subway in Manhattan only. The RER system that goes in the suburbs is as wide as the subway lines in BK, Queens and Bronx.
Ok, facts now:
- Daily ridership of Paris subway system: 4.1 million a day
- Daily ridership of NY subway system: 2.4 million a day
You have to stop repeating these "facts" you heard without checking sources...
volkommm t1_j7kx5pw wrote
Don't compare the whole system. Compare just the ridership of an improvement per people who use it.
Your ridership stats are also incorrect. Nice facts, idiot.
Stop trying to own people on Reddit when it comes to topics you just Google for five seconds to verify.
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kykws wrote
Stop trying to tell a Parisian who's been living in NY for decades how the Parisian system works 😂 The "facts" you Google are only about the subway inside Paris. That's like Manhattan. Queens, Brooklyn and The Bronx are like the Parisian suburbs, where we have the RER network and the Transilien network going there. Anyone living in the suburbs commutes using these all the time and they're included in the monthly pass. Look it up.
If you want the mileage data:
- Parisian Subway: 365 miles of track
- Parisian RER: 141 miles of track
- Parisian Transilien: 807 miles of track
- NY subway: 665 miles of track
volkommm t1_j7l3jqe wrote
Ok so let's compare French light rail to the subway? It's a glorified bus service lol. Compare heavy rail to heavy rail, which is what is being compared. Of course suburban light rail will be cheaper than SAS 2 lol.
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7l9dkt wrote
Are you saying Transilien is light rail. If anything it's the biggest rail of all 😂 There's a bit of tram yes, but most of the Transilien network is old rail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transilien?wprov=sfla1
[deleted] t1_j7l9yg6 wrote
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doughie t1_j7klhx9 wrote
It’s pretty clear they are saying that overall ridership is much higher in NYC, nothing about the price that the rider pays. Like building a bridge for 10,000 cars a day would cost more than for 100 cars a day even if the river is a similar size.. I’m no construction expert but it makes plenty of sense to me
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kpblw wrote
But it's not true though... Daily ridership in Paris is 4.1 million and NY is 2.4 million...
doughie t1_j7kz6wr wrote
I was just pointing out you were making very different arguments than him. What's your source?
I'm seeing 1.3bn NYC and 1bn in Paris on wikipedia. And double the overall length, plus it runs 24/7. But again, I'm no expert. IMO the main reason Paris gets it done cheaper is because they do the entire thing top to bottom within the government, not layer after layer of "free market bidding" which just results in profit motives, corruption, and a bunch of lawyers passing around the blame for why things are slow. If it were labor laws or 'lazy workers' surely France would be more expensive and slower.
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7l09ye wrote
Your link doesn't work. You see that because you only look at the subway inside Paris. Paris has 3 track systems (Metro, RER, Transilien) covering Paris and its suburbs just like NY covers Manhattan and the other borough, except they only have one system which is less efficient. My argument is that we need to stop trying to make excuses about why the maintenance and construction of the NY system is so corrupt, slow, and wasting money because it's SOOOOOOO DIFFERENT when in reality it's not. Your free market argument though is completely accurate, and that's the problem, nothing to do with the age of the system, the mileage, the price of the ticket or the ridership. It's like as soon as you mention how other system manage perfectly fine, people here immediately jump to cover the people who fuck the system because they want to make it sound so exceptional.
Here is a link, and it's from 2011: https://www.planetoscope.com/Mobilite/443-.html
doughie t1_j7l2o2b wrote
Hm.. the link works for me. Wikipedia's data is from 2021-22 and i didn't include LIRR or PATH or anything connecting. I think people do like to make weird excuses about why this city should be fundamentally more expensive. The answer seems pretty obvious to me, the same reason we spend 10X on military and the DOD can't even pass an audit.. waste, fraud, abuse and 3rd party contracting/grift dressed up as 'the free market'. It makes no sense to me that with so much to maintain that we shouldn't have dedicated people, sort of like the Army Corps of Engineers, who handle things and can't pass the buck or dissolve the company and reform under a different name.
Another example is Barclay's Center. We let some contractor promise a bunch of bullshit, deliver nothing that wasn't personally profitable to themselves, then sell it off to Chinese developers with the project overbudget and behind schedule. Privatized profits and socialized costs, and we still don't have half what we paid for. In France they'd riot (as we should).
[deleted] t1_j7kmg33 wrote
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lickedTators t1_j7knb67 wrote
> JUST COMPARE PROJECT COST TO TOTAL INCOME LIKE A NORMAL PERSON.
Total income of the service? This is a public good. Income shouldn't matter.
[deleted] t1_j7kpo5m wrote
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youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kpgun wrote
Ok, but what if I told you there are 4.1 million daily rider in the Parisian system and only 2.4 in the NY one? How does that compare now?
[deleted] t1_j7kpkju wrote
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volkommm t1_j7l8miu wrote
Spending 1 billion on a station that serves 10 million riders is different than spending 35 million on a station that serves 15k riders. These projects scale up to their service needs. All stations and projects are not equal.
Stop comparing nominal cost.
[deleted] t1_j7l97uk wrote
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volkommm t1_j7l9nwa wrote
????? You can't be serious right?
Whats the better value: Station 1 that costs 100 dollars and serves 1 person Station 2 that costs 200 dollars and serves 200 people.
Are you going to build station 1 because it's cheaper?
Capadvantagetutoring t1_j7kkb34 wrote
I think you can’t really compare them. The sheer size and coverage of the NYC subway system dwarfs the Parisian one. Different types of cities ( I would assume ) have different needs (Zone systems so if you have a short commute it may be cheaper Vs the one price for all no matter the difference. Either way it’s not horrible that you can get to anywhere (I assume Paris one covers the whole city also ) in the city for a few bucks
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kp4f2 wrote
You guys have to stop comparisons the whole NY subway system to the one INSIDE Paris. The Parisian system is as wide, if not wider, than the NY one. Or compare it to Manhattan only...
Capadvantagetutoring t1_j7kpvlm wrote
Why? The NYC system covers the entire NYC not just one Borough. Paris is around 140 miles vs 7-800 miles for NYC. For the sheer size of the NYC system it’s pretty damn efficient.
If the systems we’re self contained by borough I’m sure the Manahattan one would be pristine and the other ones would get so little funding that they would be horrible
I agree they shouldn’t be compared but then you say you think the Paris one is as wide or wider than the NYC one ? That part is confusing. You can’t be saying the Paris one is bigger ?
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kwlff wrote
The Parisian system covers Paris AND all the suburbs.
- NYC square mileage: 302.6
- Grand Paris square mileage: 314.3
Capadvantagetutoring t1_j7kyfj4 wrote
Should we count all of the MTA system? Counting Long Island and Westchester county ? Sounds like that’s what you are doing. Subway is just one part of the whole system. Since you want to compare.
Let’s do miles of track just in the city 140 vs 250 (800 miles if you count double used tracks )just in NYC not including the rest of the system
I’ll use your metric the greater nyc area is 6720 square miles. Let’s take off 60% because some of that is NJ. That’s still 2600 sq miles. Paris system is dwarfed by NYC MTA. If you compare apples to apples and even when you compare JUST NYC vs Paris city only system (not outside ) still a big difference. Nobody is shitting on the Paris one it’s just comparing the NYC one to Paris is not really relevant
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kz05b wrote
Miles of track:
- NY Subway 665
- Parisian Subway 141
- Parisian RER 365
- Parisian Transilien 807
Regardless, are you telling us that there's no waste in the construction of the NY system and that its efficiently run?
Capadvantagetutoring t1_j7l1519 wrote
Never said there wasn’t waste (tons of it ) are you saying there is none in Paris
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7l1w4c wrote
Well, we circle back to: compare the price and time it takes to build a line in Paris vs NY...
NetQuarterLatte t1_j7kz1gq wrote
Compared to NYC, Paris is almost a circle.
So perhaps the solution to public transit efficiency is to change the shape of NYC so that the outer edges of the city are roughly equidistant from the center.
youcantfindoutwhoiam t1_j7kzjkt wrote
I'm tired of those arguments trying to tell me that there's no corruption in the way the MTA budgets and spends and that they are only spending that much because of the rock, the mileage, the shape now apparently.... Believe what you want and refuse to compare to how other countries can maintain and expand a similar system for cheaper and faster...
NetQuarterLatte t1_j7l2bm1 wrote
I have no doubt there's corruption.
There's a lot of inefficiencies too.
I think you might like this article: How to build back under budget (maybe) | The Economist
>But unfortunately the agency drawing up the contract does not have enough qualified staff to conduct a full review of construction proposals. The lowest bidder wins the job, as is typically the case in America. After winning, however, the contractor quickly tacks on additional costs, and the government is again in over its head. Unable to manage such a big project, it ends up relying on contractors and consultants who botch key segments of the Wilson line, requiring expensive do-overs. Inter-agency turf battles and co-ordination problems worsen the situation.
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