Die-Nacht t1_j7m005v wrote
Reply to comment by yasth in FDNY ranks in 'turmoil' after commissioner demotes chiefs, high-ranking officials step down by nyujoe
As a street safety advocate, my main complaint with the FDNY (besides the placard abuse) is their trucks. They're too large. We've seen that fire trucks do not need to be that large, look at fire trucks in Tokyo, for example. Other cities around the world have already switched to smaller, cheaper fire trucks.
Why do I care about that? Because we end up having to make a lot of our streets way wider than they have to be, which encourages speeding and makes it more dangerous. And every time we bring this up to DOT, they tell us "we can't do that, because a fire truck needs to be able to make that turn".
Additionally, those massive trucks are made on special chassis. This means they are WAY more expensive than they need to be.
In_fact_its_me t1_j7m1ljm wrote
Sounds like possible financial abuse to. Leaving people on medical leave for years etc
AlarmedCoffee7422 t1_j7n1ayx wrote
incredibly likely, one of the departments I know of would keep known alcoholics on the job but just shove them in office jobs, where they’d be useless drunks and rot for the rest of the years taking up taxpayers dollars.
This27that t1_j7r0bso wrote
Can’t speak specifically about Japanese fire trucks, but European fire trucks are similarly small. They are small because they were restricted to fit their pre-existing tighter streets.
European ladder trucks are much smaller than American trucks, but they don’t have the same ability to flow water that American trucks do.
American streets, including most of New York City’s, are typically at least a little wider, which is why our trucks have been able to grow to the sizes they have. Our trucks have grown and gained certain capabilities as a result.
The ability to flow water from aerial and tower ladders, due to their reach and capabilities, has saved countless buildings throughout the city and the country. These ladders can put a significant volume of water where humans can’t reach and when it’s not safe to put humans in the building.
So Japan and Europe may have smaller fire trucks, but they do not have the same capabilities American fire trucks do.
Bigger fire trucks therefore offer superior fire protection. Furthermore, European buildings are typically made of more non combustible materials (possibly why they get by without ladders designed to flow water), while combustible buildings are prolific throughout New York City and the rest of the country.
Die-Nacht t1_j7rc8dc wrote
Europe and Asia have massive cities with massive buildings just like NYC (in fact, even bigger). And they're doing just fine. In fact, they are doing better than fine. Not only can they afford more equipment since their trucks are cheaper, but their streets are also safer and more livable (which saves money on healthcare costs).
Cities in the US are already starting to wake up to this. DC is already testing way smaller fire trucks and many small municipalities around the country (due to budget issues) just started using modified pickup trucks.
The reason our fire trucks are so damn large is that we let them. They were originally based on military vehicles, which makes no sense. I heard a rumor that NYC may start to look at the smaller trucks (as well as no use the massive ones for every single little thing) but I haven't heard much news on that front.
We currently live in an era where fire departments are closed due to budget cuts, as well as a traffic safety crisis that's pretty much only happening in the US. We can get two birds with one stone by getting smaller (and cheaper) fire trucks and shrinking our streets.
This27that t1_j7rxbls wrote
The size of the buildings isn’t the problem (in fact once they’re over ~100’ ladders are just about worthless). The problem is what the buildings are made of. European buildings are typically made of non combustible materials like concrete and steel, which means firefighters can rely on the building to protect them while they are inside and fight the fire. The building isn’t on fire, just the contents inside.
NYC also has a ton of very tall noncombustible buildings, but that’s not why it needs large ladder trucks. NYC needs larger ladder trucks because it also has an enormous stock of combustible buildings that don’t offer the same protection. Once the fire gets to a certain size and the structure itself is burning (and the fire is burning in concealed combustible spaces), it can become unsafe for firefighters to stay in the building to fight it. You can let the building burn down at that point or attack it with large-volume streams. Nothing does that better than a tower ladder. European trucks simply can’t do this (and they don’t often have to!).
DC has a similar building stock to NYC, so I’ll believe that they’re switching to smaller trucks when I see it. What they may do is switch to electric vehicles, but I doubt they are ever going to give up large order trucks. The truck in that link is a fire engine, which is different than a ladder truck.
And I would like to see a source on the departments that are starting to use modified pick up trucks. They may be using them for non-structural fire responses like brush fires, medical calls, etc, to save on fuel, while leaving the bigger trucks back at the station. But when a structure fire hits, I’d bet they still roll out the bigger trucks.
NYC may start using smaller trucks for non-fire responses as well, but the streets will still have to accommodate the bigger trucks because they will still be needed for fires.
Lastly, fire trucks are not originally based on military vehicles. You can trace their origins all the way back to the mid-1800s and see them slowly evolve, getting bigger and bigger as capabilities and available tools expanded.
Prime_Exposures t1_j7sp3dt wrote
I would say that the size of the building does in fact matter, especially of non-fireproof construction. A fire in a 3 story wood frame, rescues can be facilitated from portable extension ladders (and you typically see such in the more “residential” outer boroughs.). Once you exceed 4 stories though, portable ladders are ineffective for the roof and upper floors.
Then let’s downsize the trucks in those areas of the city,easy enough right? Not so much. The fire department is built on redundancy and the ability to interchange units throughout the city. A truck in Queens could quite easily wind up responding to a fire in the South Bronx.
This27that t1_j80li1a wrote
Yes size of the building does matter. I was trying to explain that my point was that we have differently built buildings, not taller buildings
Die-Nacht t1_j7s79yu wrote
You keep really trying to drive this "building materials" point. Do you have any source that Europe and Asia just build their stuff from better materials and that that's the reason we need bigger trucks?
I've researched this topic a bit and I've never heard that excuse. The only excuse I've found for why they are so big in the US is just that the streets are wide, and since they are wide, there's no reason to make them smaller. Now, with cities having budget issues, there may be a financial incentive to go smaller.
This article goes over the differences: https://www.fireapparatusmagazine.com/fire-apparatus/fire-apparatus-united-states-vs-europe/#gref
They mention the "aerial trucks" and make the point that one difference between the US and Europe is the methodology. Over there, they focus on rescues, not so much on fighting the fires. I could see that being a major difference.
Regardless of the reason, we need to find a way to make them smaller. We can't keep our streets as wide as they currently are, too many ppl are getting hurt.
This27that t1_j814wke wrote
No source necessarily. Just anecdotal discussions I’ve had.
Regardless of the building materials issue, our trucks are more versatile than theirs are. This is probably because they have been restricted (by their narrow roads) to smaller trucks that therefore have less capabilities. If they had room for our trucks, I’m sure they’d be using them.
Other than the safety issue you mention, there is no reason for us to go backwards and start using less capable, smaller trucks.
And in terms of that “methodology,” I don’t think European departments are more focused on rescues, just that they can only use their ladder trucks for rescue and not for fighting fire. They are restricted to using the trucks only for rescue—it’s not a choice.
As for the safety issue on the streets, there are plenty of options to make them safer other than making them smaller. The city can add speed bumps; they can use roundabouts; they can add speed cameras. Reducing the size of fire trucks is not the only option.
AlarmedCoffee7422 t1_j7mzxxm wrote
I can promise you that if people actually investigated the FDNY, your main complaint wouldn’t be parking. All fire departments need to be investigated— at this point people are ok with overlooking fire departments because they’re not cops, but I can tell you right now firefighters get away with heinous shit because of their close relationship with the police. Firefighters that say “yea fuck the police we’re not them!!!!” still probably get off with a slap on the wrist for issues (i.e. drunk driving) that would put them in serious trouble
Prime_Exposures t1_j7sexjn wrote
What happens as NYC continues to add protected bike lanes throughout the boroughs, especially in areas where there are older non-fireproof buildings?? The ladder trucks are now forced to take a position further from the building, necessitating current or longer ladder lengths. And in a vertical city, where new buildings are regularly increasing in height, larger pumps are required to create enough pressure to supply water to those upper floors.
Die-Nacht t1_j7sg0aq wrote
Somehow this is not an issue in Europe and Asia, where they have even older buildings, and even taller newer ones.
Prime_Exposures t1_j7sjenj wrote
Can you provide a reference for the typical construction type of a six story apartment building in Europe? I am not versed in their standards. I do understand though that an overwhelming number of 6-7 story apartment buildings in NYC are considered class 3 non-fireproof (typically brick exterior with wood structural components). These buildings do not require (and thus often do not have) any sort of interior fire protection such as sprinklers. Additionally the stairways are often open and also non-fireproof. A fire can be on a lower floor, but if the apartment door is left open then the stairway acts as a chimney. People on the floors above are not going to be able to get down those stairs (Jan 2022 fire in the Bronx is a tragic example, and that building was fire-resistant with enclosed stairways). And that’s just discussing smoke, let alone fire spreading via open spaces between wooden floors and beams. If you want smaller fire trucks, then you would need to change code and require all non-fireproof multiple dwelling buildings to install sprinklers, and possibly enclose their stairways. Building owners and their lobbyists would never allow it.
And I emphasize 6-7 story buildings for comparison. A 35 foot aluminum extension ladder would probably suffice at most 2-3 story buildings. But for 6-7 stories you’re going to need something vehicle mounted and hydraulically operated (7 stores = 70’ minimum roofline. Now factor the angle/hypotenuse and it’s easily 100’ ladder required from the curb line.)
Die-Nacht t1_j7sknac wrote
> Can you provide a reference for the typical construction type of a six story apartment building in Europe?
I cannot. Because I'm not a construction expert. All I know is that Europe and Asia has older cities, with older buildings, which I'm sure aren't up to code, as well as newer, taller buildings than what we have. And yet, they managed to figure out how not to use expensive, massive trucks. So I don't buy the whole "old buildings that aren't up to code" or "massive newer towers" are real excuses.
I'm no expert, like I said, I'm just a street safety advocate that's annoyed that we have such dangerous streets because we need to keep them do damn wide. So we should be figuring out how to make them smaller, to save lives (not just from fires) and money.
Prime_Exposures t1_j7snml3 wrote
As a cyclist I can understand your sentiment. Unfortunately it can not be realized in NYC until all 5-7 story non-fireproof buildings are razed.
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