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ObjectiveDark40 t1_j4vktwd wrote

Oh another right whale dying while entangled? Yet Maine politicians are insisting it's not an issue and that using safer gear would be too much of a hardship. Good job Susan Collins and Jared Golden. I know this isn't Maine but it's relevant.

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Simple_Opossum OP t1_j4vr7ff wrote

So sad that there are so few left and the population is still in decline.

It breaks my heart to see what people have done to the planet, the environment, the creatures that live there—especially cetaceans, which are widely known to be some of the most intelligent animals on earth.

If only politicians could govern in good faith.

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Budget_Pop9600 t1_j4w1qzq wrote

That doesnt fill their pockets though

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techleopard t1_j51ujaa wrote

Sadly... this is one of the reasons I actually do support well-funded zoos. People can hem and haw about "abuse" all they like, but putting a financial incentive on saving animals is how they get saved from extinction.

For example, for certain types of endangered exotic antelope, there are more individuals on ranches in Texas than there are in the wilds of Africa. People want to shoot these animals so badly that it's become ludicrously profitable to not only save them from extinction, but manage their genetics to prevent them from bottlenecking.

If the cheetah wasn't so hard to breed in captivity, the pet market would have completely reversed their current endangered status because they're probably the "safest" of the big cats and most trainable for hunting, racing, and sport.

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HandoTrius t1_j4yyfl4 wrote

It hurts my heart so much, we could do so much better

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Megraptor t1_j4wj494 wrote

The comments over at the Maine sub about this issue are real gross. That whole sub really shows how Maine is closed off though. Don't mention you want to visit or move there, they will start complaining about people from away and biscuits and kittens. There's a saying...

Anyways, it's funny to me how much finger pointing there is about this issue. "No it's Canada!" "No it's the high speed boats!" "No it's the cargo ships!" "Stop trying to blame honest lobster fishermen!"

What is even more frustrating is that there's a solution, ropeless lobster pots. They use GPS to find them and then to collect them they inflate the buoy and it rises to the surface. The two problems is that one they are more expensive, and two, there's a long tradition of using buoy colors and patterns to determine who's pots are who- they keep that online or anything, you need to look at local boards. They don't want to move away from that.

Worse though, using colors by communities means that other communities may use the same color and pattern, so there is no way to actually tie ropes with buoys back to the US... Or Canada. And that's how they are technically correct when they say "American gear hadn't killed any North Atlantic Right Whales." It's not been tied back to American gear because it can't be.

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ObjectiveDark40 t1_j4wmujo wrote

Yeah we moved there during the pandemic from out west. All the Maine groups on FB are full of "leave your politics in your home state, you are moving for a reason" and that sorta nonsense. Like...there are literally 1.5mil people here with an inverted population pyramid and failing towns and they don't want people to move there? My home county has the population of the whole state, let alone the metro area that's like 2x the population. Lots of morons. It's slowly changing though.

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Megraptor t1_j4wuno0 wrote

I'm from Northern Pennsylvania, the area that has like no one and no one ever thinks about. It's no where near Philadelphia, it's closer to Pittsburgh but still hours through forest, mountains and farmland to get to the Burgh.

I was interested in Maine cause it's like where I'm from without the oil and gas politics, and a coast near by. Pretty much same critters too, outside of moose, but I'm used to driving like a granny due to overpopulated deer though. I thought the state was more environmentally minded than Pennsylvania too, but uh... Nope. They are protectionist against their chose economic drivers, it's just they don't have oil and gas resources to exploit like Pennsylvania does- and they never will, the geology ain't right for it there.

What gets me about Maine though is that it has the oldest population, and young people aren't staying... Yet they chase out young adults? My home area is like that- though the Mainers don't like hearing how Maine is like another place.

So... How are they ever going to keep a economy going if they don't let people move there? They complain about no jobs, yet shoot down anything that would make new jobs too. They hate remote workers.

I've seen a lot of Mainers say "At least we aren't West Virginia." Ironically, I live pretty close to West Virginia now, and hike there a ton. The people there are actually pretty nice, and take pride in their culture, unlike Maine where it seems like it's pride in family heritage and genetics.

WV is really trying to promote tourism and people moving there too, cause surprise, they have the same issue that Maine has. I think the big difference I've seen is that Maine has a history of tourism while West Virginia has a history of natural resource exploitation... Which has created both similar and different issues over the years.

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edwinthowaway t1_j4wn1nj wrote

> Anyways, it's funny to me how much finger pointing there is about this issue. "No it's Canada!" "No it's the high speed boats!" "No it's the cargo ships!" "Stop trying to blame honest lobster fishermen!"

I mean, boat collisions are a documented cause of right whale death, and Canadians fish lobster, too. Surely those potential causes for right whale death should also be addressed.

> Worse though, using colors by communities means that other communities may use the same color and pattern, so there is no way to actually tie ropes with buoys back to the US... Or Canada. And that's how they are technically correct when they say "American gear hadn't killed any North Atlantic Right Whales." It's not been tied back to American gear because it can't be.

That's just not true. In Sept 2020, new marking requirements went into effect that will make is clear if entangled fishing gear comes from Maine: https://www.maine.gov/dmr/sites/maine.gov.dmr/files/docs/2020%20Gear%20Marking%20Requirements%204.27.20%20(1).pdf

Also, it's not like other fisheries use more identifiable equipment. The fact is you can't link the deaths to any specific fishery.

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Megraptor t1_j4wrx5o wrote

The thing about boat/ship collisions is that those are already being addressed with reroutes and speed restrictions. Yes, it's not completely mitigated, but you don't hear the shipping industry complaining and getting politicians involved.

Old gear is still out there, and the data they are arguing with is from before 2020. It's from 2012. This is the paper I see cited a lot-

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261358674_Monitoring_North_Atlantic_right_whale_Eubalaena_glacialis_entanglement_rates_A_30_yr_retrospective

Author put out a newer paper in 2022 too, but even then the data is only until 2011.

https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/csp2.12736

So while yes, lines have to be marked now, the data is all before this change and that's what the state and lobster fishermen are using to argue that it isn't US fisheries. It also doesn't change that there still are unmarked or unidentifiable lines out there- but these mean that if anything, we should err on the side of caution until we can actually get good data on where gear is coming from, not continue to let Maine fish in protected areas while blaming other states/countries/industries.

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edwinthowaway t1_j4wue8i wrote

> The thing about boat/ship collisions is that those are already being addressed with reroutes and speed restrictions. Yes, it's not completely mitigated, but you don't hear the shipping industry complaining and getting politicians involved.

I promise they are not happy and they are likely lobbying as well. Still, I have yet to see them called out as the lobster industry has. The Monterey Bay Aquarium isn't telling us to avoid stuff shipped by boat.

The lobster industry has also made changes, adding weak links to allow whales to break free more easily and sinking lines. Yes, it's not completely mitigated, but you seem to think that's good enough for ships.

> Old gear is still out there

Citation? According to my link, they have to use marked lines after Sept 1, 2022: "By September 1, 2020 all gear must be marked with the purple and green marks referenced above"

But your post implied that they are deliberately avoiding marking their gear so as to avoid it ever being traced back to the Maine lobster industry. That is not true. If this whale was harmed by Maine gear, the purple marks should make that evident.

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Megraptor t1_j4x3kak wrote

Shipping industry was called out back when this all started, that's why. Back in the 2000s and early 2010s. Shipping collisions aren't unique to the NARWs either, so the government and environmental groups have been on shipping in general since... The 80s? I think that's about when talk about ships and whale collisions started happening.

Monterey Bay Seafood Watch is only for seafood, that's why. They do lobbying for speed restrictions and reroutes too, along with other aquariums, like New England Aquarium.

This is a continuous process of data gathering and finding out what the issues are. Entanglement deaths also outnumber vessel strikes in the last few years. We aren't seeing a decline in entanglements yet- note the data for 2019-2023 is not done being complied on this page.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/national/marine-life-distress/2017-2023-north-atlantic-right-whale-unusual-mortality-event

The old gear is in the ocean, not being used. Lobster rope can last for years when submerged in water. Lost gear happens, and with it, lost rope. I don't think I need a citation for ghost gear, it's a widely known thing. But just because you asked-

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X21008006

My post implied that the argument that "it's Canadian gear" didn't work because gear wasn't marked when data was collected. On top of that, the marks only go so far- all they do is ID thing rope, they don't stop anything. And that's assuming that the rope isn't fouled up and you can actually see the marks.

And about your shipping assumption- shipping is a whole different beast with trade offs- it's less carbon intensive to ship by boat than by plane. Buying local when one can is always good. But even then, shipping is subject to restrictions, and we are seeing declines in mortality due to shipping vessels. I know for a fact that one of the deaths last year that is a vessel strike was not shipping, but a fishing yacht- which I do without just fine. And I do fine without lobster too, since there are alternatives in other, more sustainable crustaceans, or other proteins both plant and animal based.

https://www.nationalfisherman.com/gulf-south-atlantic/florida-sportfishing-captain-describes-fatal-right-whale-strike

There's a lot of restrictions on vessels too.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/national/endangered-species-conservation/reducing-vessel-strikes-north-atlantic-right-whales

Regardless of marks or not though, it doesn't matter. Gear is getting stuck on these whales and killing them. Monterey Bay is saying err on the side of caution because there's 350 of these whales left. Until we can prove that

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edwinthowaway t1_j4x5p8q wrote

There is little that can be done about ghosts gear. The lobster industry could stop fishing tomorrow and that would still be there. I don’t get your point. A lobster fished today with new gear does nothing about ghost gear. All they can do is use the best gear today.

You say err on the side of caution, then fine. Shut the industry down and start paying lobster fishermen not to fish ($750,000,000 a year). But all of a sudden, costs will matter when it’s not the lobsterman’s wallets we are hitting.

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Megraptor t1_j55m60s wrote

Point is, gear today is still getting stuck on NARWs, marks or not. It's just old gear can't be traced to anywhere, and the data that many people are citing that says it's not US lobster pots is from before the pots were marked.

There are other solutions than to just shut it down completely. Ropeless pots are a thing.
https://ropeless.org/background/

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edwinthowaway t1_j564goc wrote

> gear today

> old gear

These are not the same thing. All they can do is change what they use today. Even ropeless pots that you suggest do not magically eliminate old gear. My point is, they have taken steps to make the gear they use today traceable. They cannot go back in time and do it to already lost gear.

And who is paying for every lobster boat to get ropeless gear?

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paper_snow t1_j505io6 wrote

I know there’s a larger issue to talk about here, so I’m sorry, but…

> biscuits and kittens

Huh? Does this mean something, or were you throwing out random words? Who complains about kittens? 🥺

> There’s a saying…

Can I please hear it? I’m being earnest here… I don’t know much about Maine’s residents, so it’s surprising to hear stuff like this about their general attitudes.

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Megraptor t1_j55lpcq wrote

"Just because a cat has her kittens in the oven don't make them biscuits."

They say that in Maine, and it means just because people moved there and had kids doesn't make the kids Mainers. Sometimes it's a joke or a razz, but some people take it very seriously there.

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paper_snow t1_j55o1s7 wrote

OMG… Thank you so much for answering! That was really bothering me. I’ve never heard that expression before. It’s actually kind of cute, until you realize that it’s pretty xenophobic… o_O Thanks for the perspective.

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paper_snow t1_j55545y wrote

Dude… I’m serious. Biscuits and kittens? I’ve gotta know!

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Megraptor t1_j55ljg7 wrote

"Just because a cat has her kittens in the oven don't make them biscuits."

It means that just cause your parents moved there and had you doesn't mean you're a Mainer. Some people use it as a joke, but some use it very seriously.

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PyrrhaNikosIsNotDead t1_j5702xb wrote

Well I guess I could see their argument for the parents, but it seems the whole statement is about the kids not being a Mainer? That’s crazy, if you’re born and raised somewhere, you’re from there

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GWS2004 t1_j4vzn2b wrote

Yup and they got a six year extension, I believe, on having to do anything to modify their gear to help the whales.

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rnagikarp t1_j50t9u9 wrote

okay question for you, why is whaling illegal in Maine if it's a land-locked state?

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edwinthowaway t1_j4wk0xm wrote

Where is it confirmed this is Maine lobster fishing gear? There are sadly many sources of line in the ocean. And that says nothing about vessel strikes. Why does Maine lobstering get attacked by no other potential sources of entanglement or whale death get addressed?

The question is a complex one. This letter, signed by Democrats and Republicans from the state makes a lot of good points. This article is also pretty unbiased, noting that it is essentially impossible to note where the gear comes from, although Maine gear has been marked since 2020. What I find interesting is that Right Whale populations grew 1990-2010, but only recently started falling. It seems to me that other factors are an issue that may not be understood.

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ObjectiveDark40 t1_j4wm0gk wrote

Never said it was...in fact I specifically said:

>>I know this isn't Maine but it's relevant.

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