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akaasa001 t1_j4yajlb wrote

So maybe I am missing something but why is Germany demanding a match. Germany has supplied barely a fraction of military aid compared to the US. Really seems like Germany needs to step it up a bit on the support...Or am I just naive?

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lollypatrolly t1_j4yhxpq wrote

> but why is Germany demanding a match.

It's cowardice, they're deathly afraid of doing anything without overwhelming political cover. It's much more comfortable to hide behind the skirt of mommy US.

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MightyThor211 t1_j50gjhe wrote

Yeah, they are closer to the threat than the US. I would say it's more of a fear thing. I mean, the only things standing between Germany and Russia geographicly is Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus. Plus, add that history that Russia has made it to Berlin before and I can understand some hesitation.

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Willygolightly t1_j50itnb wrote

So we could say that Germany is somewhat trying to appease Putin? Sounds familiar….

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MightyThor211 t1_j50oxny wrote

In my completely non expert experience it doesn't seem like they are trying to appease him. The US is ok with throwing war machines at them because to the US, this is a giant dick showing contest to Russia. Germany doesn't want to wave its wurst unless they know they will have someone backing them.

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Scagnettie t1_j51wxez wrote

> Germany doesn't want to wave its wurst unless they know they will have someone backing them.

You mean like NATO(which includes America and it's war machine) and the entire European Union? Your point makes no sense at all.

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Scagnettie t1_j51wint wrote

Germany is well protected by NATO. If Russia is having this much trouble with Ukraine NATO would bend them over at will. As for your other point that Ukraine is one of the barriers between Germany and Russia it makes no sense for Germany to let Ukraine fall and bring the Russian threat closer.

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akaasa001 t1_j522bru wrote

If Germany wasn't part of NATO, then I could definitely see your point. I suspect that this is more political, and perhaps they want something from the US. At this point I think we are all just speculating. It is making Germany look bad nonetheless.

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MightyThor211 t1_j52wktm wrote

Oh agreed. As I said, in my completely non expert opinion this is all speculation.

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jens-2420 t1_j4z8ei3 wrote

Baah. Should Leopards be delivered, next step will be fighter jets, war ships, … And the complete supply and maintenance line is supposed to be thrown in for free, too.

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astro__dev t1_j4zdxzf wrote

Who tf says “baah” are you a sheep

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jens-2420 t1_j4zdzop wrote

Everyone in Germany says that. Better than the US „fuck“ …

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DrKepret t1_j50edt9 wrote

Least patriotic German. Dude’s everywhere on this post; the insecurity is leaking out.

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jens-2420 t1_j50fs6t wrote

Ad hominem. MAGA style. Blocked

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DrKepret t1_j50ggsj wrote

Ok, still doesn’t change the fact that Germans shouldn’t be blocking those tanks.

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jens-2420 t1_j50hkgy wrote

I stop discussing here. USA political opinion - as much as I loved it when living there - is a Calcutta Black Hole since 2016 for me. No way for real arguments any more. Pity.

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Torifyme12 OP t1_j4yapxc wrote

No you're right, but don't worry, some Germans will be by to tell you why you're wrong and they're secretly doing more than everyone else put together

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JellyBiafra54321 t1_j51z0yy wrote

right? I'm sick of this whole supporting European wars thing while Europeans sit there and complain about the US. Fund this shit by yourselves already.

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ApizzaApizza t1_j56eilw wrote

They supported us for 20 years in the Middle East my dude.

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Claystead t1_j58916x wrote

Okay, I agreed with the previous person but this is a pretty silly argument. Besides the Germans most of Europe has sent a massive amount of military aid even if they can’t match the quantities the US can provide. The Baltic countries have literally sent like a third of their annual military budget, Denmark is sending almost their entire self propelled artillery park, Norway has sent one quarter of their winter uniforms a fifth of their anti-air systems, Poland and Slovakia have sent huge sections of their armored vehicle parks, including almost all the old Soviet stuff, and the British in addition to sending tanks, artillery and missile systems are training thousands of Ukrainian soldiers on their soil. Even the French are chipping in (even if it seems they do it mostly to do better than the Germans and to keep up with the British). Finland is about to send tanks too, despite not being in NATO. You can see the full list here. In total Europe has contributed well over $100 billion in aid so far, and it is Europe which has committed to funding the brunt of reconstruction after the war, not the US.

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jens-2420 t1_j4zoczn wrote

Of course. Only in USA these supports are breaking news at least three times before they come.

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DefinitelyNotAliens t1_j518p1c wrote

The US has been propping up the Ukrainian military in foreign aid since before Russia invaded this time. Russia has been involved in a series of pushes and the US was selling older military tech that outstripped Ukrainian resources at a loss prior to this most recent invasion.

The whole Hunter Biden/ impeachment thing? That was over the US aid package to Ukraine. It was 250M in funding for equipment and training. We'd been sending Javelin launchers since before the war started.

We've sent billions in advanced weaponry and medical aid and it has predated the latest Russian invasion. Yes, it takes time to send weaponry over but we've been training Ukrainian forces since before the war started which is one of many reasons they were able to outlast the first two weeks and allow additional aid to arrive. Zelenskyy didn't run and the military held Kyiv. Part of that was they already had a limited number of Javelin launchers and other weaponry to stop armored advances. The stockpile has exploded in the last year, sure.

The US backing of Ukraine isn't new. There's absolutely standing to say we've done quite a bit without actually having soldiers directly engaged.

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flourishingpinecone t1_j4yhfzl wrote

you're being a bit naive because the entire world has only sent a fraction of what the US has sent

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MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4yitmv wrote

True, but that absolutely shouldn’t be the case. Germany has much more to fear from Russian expansionism in Europe.

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flourishingpinecone t1_j4yo1zv wrote

the US spends 3x more on defense than the entire EU combined, they aren't ever gonna be able to match us.

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MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4yorvd wrote

Yeah. Trumpists (cough cough) were right about one thing: the US needs to stop being the security guard for Europe on US taxpayers’ dime. It’s been 78 years since the end of WWII, and it’s time for Germany (in particular) to stop free-riding on the US security umbrella.

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Torifyme12 OP t1_j4yvuvk wrote

Or at the least if they could stop crapping on us it'd be nice.

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jens-2420 t1_j4zerrd wrote

USA is keeping military posts all over the world in its own interests. Bit like the British 150 years ago. Not for „defending freedom and democracy“.

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MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4zfjv5 wrote

That fact redounds to Germany’s benefit, as well as to the rest of the west.

It’s not at all like the British because the US doesn’t have colonies. The British were engaging in mercantilism; the US isn’t.

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Fuzzy_Accident_5085 t1_j507nec wrote

To prevent dictators getting ahold of nuclear weapons. You want more north koreas? Just letting dictators run loose is how you get more koreas and russias and middle easts. If the US was like the British empire, it’d own all of Europe hand in hand with the Soviet Union AND Britain. Now once again, the US has to step in and play god because germany AND France AND the rest of the EU is repeating itself and letting the rest of the world down by not confronting dictators.

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Sbubbert t1_j53toi7 wrote

People like you are so fucking ignorant. How do you think the whole world would look like right now if the US had the military budget of an average European country? Hint: you wouldn't like it very much.

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Krajun t1_j4z71y9 wrote

After all the US has done in the past, I don't think Ukraine is where we should draw the line. The one time we're actually defending democracy instead of installing fascist regimes.

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MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4z869o wrote

I fully, 100% agree. Now is not the time. Also, we’d be fools from a cost-benefit standpoint.

eta: Nonetheless, Germany needs to step up.

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reddit5674 t1_j4zu28v wrote

Hmmm... It's not like free security?

Its like USA's business model. Somewhat similar to the colony era.

I am not economy or military expert, but I do know there ar benefits from all that military expansion, directly and both indirectly.

Im not saying whether this "business" model is efficient or not, (it is getting slightly less effective currently as I see it) but it is not "wasting tax payers money"

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Venetax t1_j4yvgx1 wrote

That decision would only make the US weak. The US is strong because it intervenes basically everything everywhere and takes the position of the "leader of the free world". If they stop doing that, it would slowly result in the US becoming more insignificant.

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MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j4ywpym wrote

I wasn’t suggesting that the US withdraw from the world stage.

The US is strong because it’s a vast country comprised of 330 million people spread out over 50 states, a district, and territories, with tremendous natural and human resources. Having Germany pull its weight after outsourcing most of its defense for nearly 8 decades won’t cause the US to crumble.

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IAmAPaidActor t1_j586tgv wrote

The US is strong because it wields its power effectively. It puts down its enemies economically, it puts down its threats with overwhelming violence, and it props up allies where needed. This maintains its status, ensures that nobody can act against it except for show, and guarantees further economic prosperity. The US has a strong economy because it maintains a presence with each of its trade partners. Some of that is through treaties with larger allies, some of that is through base agreements with smaller allies, and some of that comes in the form of missile strikes and occupation to remind the less friendly nations why they need to fall in line and keep things amicable.

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MetaphysicalMayhem t1_j58ageq wrote

The US is the least trade-dependent member of the G7, by far. Trade is a relatively insignificant part of the US’s wealth. Thus, your statement that the “US has a strong economy because it maintains a presence with each of its trade partners” is flat wrong. The US is strong for the reasons I stated. It’s huge and has tremendous natural and human resources, all governed relatively loosely.

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Fiddler_s_green t1_j4zrkx2 wrote

They only said that because the love the psedo-christian-facist state that is Russia. If Ukraine had been attacked by people of a darker completion our fascist party would have given them fucking air craft carrier groups.

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lochlainn t1_j4yny3w wrote

Look at it in terms of GDP. France and Germany are sending embarassingly little compared to places like the UK, Canada, Poland, the former Soviet Baltic states (Estonia gave a whopping 1.1% of their GDP and Latvia 0.93%) a whopping 1.1% of their GDP), or Norway.

For a country that suffered under Russian occupation, they aren't giving like the rest, that's for sure.

The US gave 0.23% of its GDP, comparable to Canada.

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Venetax t1_j4yuy6i wrote

>Combining financial assistance, humanitarian aid, and weapon deliveries put together, the German government has sent €5.45 billion directly to Ukraine this year. It’s also channeled a further €7.15 billion to help fund EU initiatives for Ukraine, making for a combined total of €12.6 billion in German support.

Germany overall has sent ~0.3% of its GDP.

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lochlainn t1_j4z1rhm wrote

A shame they can only throw money, and not actual military aid, then.

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lochlainn t1_j4yn7bt wrote

Even in GDP terms, they're far outclassed by Poland and the UK, it's just embarassingly shitty how little France, and especially Germany, have given, compared to their economic ability.

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Fuzzy_Accident_5085 t1_j4zk67r wrote

Germany would rather strip mine coal as the US goes greener, and get one upped by the US in military support as per usual. They won’t be able to afford replacements, unlike the US that spends more on its military a year than Germany makes in its GDP.

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jens-2420 t1_j4z7mcg wrote

They could have given nothing, right? And still be a western country. Germany has to spend another 200 billion this year to compensate for energy prices.

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Scagnettie t1_j51vwyx wrote

That's what they get for putting all their eggs in Putin's basket.

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jens-2420 t1_j4zbtdn wrote

USA has 800 billion military budget, Germany has 50 billion. You want armaments race again?

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akaasa001 t1_j4ziiao wrote

There is no race, the US is superior by far in military, we all know that. My concern is more towards the attitude of Germany rather than comparing defense budgets. Realistically yes the US is able to send more aid, no one in here is failing to acknowledge that. But Germany can still send those tanks without the US sending more aid, that is imo a bit scummy.

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jens-2420 t1_j4zjg1x wrote

EU countries are giving substantial financial, civilian and arms support already.

After tanks are delivered, the next debate will be: fighter jets, Long range artillery, war ships. That already started in Divos, too.

Let us be earnest: The only ones who can fulfill these needs are USA and China.

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rdxxx t1_j4ycofq wrote

Because they have not been stockpiling tanks or weapons in general, because that's usually what happens when you are not constantly invading some middle eastern country for the past 20 years

Also they probably just really don't want to for whatever reason, they will rather put some additional conditions to drag their feet instead just refusing

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