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mrgreyeyes t1_iqpu3bc wrote

Bought a wood pellet fireplace and wood pellets for two winters just after the war started. Prices were reasonable and you could see it coming from miles away.

Fuck you Putin. We will have a cozy winter without your gas, all the whilst your empire crumbles to nothing.

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evert198201 t1_iqq8o4m wrote

In Nov. I will be paying 2.80 EUR per cubic meter (variable contract), in comparision, my GF pays 0,70 EUR because back in 2020 she took a 4 year contract for fixed prices. Electric is 3x higher also. I am paying around 0,70EUR kwh. I am lucky, my appartment is from 2017, very well isolated, etc. also I will not have a problem paying the bills with even higher prices but I really can imagine a lot of people will get into trouble as soon as winter kicks in.

just a small reminder: keep in mind that here in the west we have a huge social safety net, I don't think people will die/suffer/homeless, it's more like people will be keeping themself warm indoors with extra clothing and will have less money left to spend on other things. Even the people who will end up getting into debts will not just lose their house and die under a bridge in the freezing colds ..

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[deleted] t1_iqq95dm wrote

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zeromadcowz t1_iqqwvn3 wrote

I live in Northern Canada on an isolated grid with about 40,000 people on it and I complain about my 20 cents CAD per kWh lol. (~15 cents USD).

Still cheaper to heat with oil.

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Watthefuq882 t1_iqqijcz wrote

This isn’t the topic of discussion but electric where I live is nuts too. A tiny house is about 850$ a month

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Direct_Rabbit_5389 t1_iqqq8f6 wrote

Energy prices in California are high by design. It's to encourage you to make efficient decisions and use less. Same way as how even before this crisis fuel was much more expensive in Europe due to fees and taxes.

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[deleted] t1_iqr38oc wrote

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Direct_Rabbit_5389 t1_iqt86mq wrote

Does orange country pay less than half of San Diego? Both using the same gas provider? I'm surprised to hear that. Prices in the bay area were in the mid 40c per kWh when I lived there five years ago and folks in sf were the same. I assumed this was due to sin taxation.

Fwiw brief googling doesn't find anything to support the claim that OC is cheaper than San Diego. Con ed time of use rates are quoted state-wide here: https://www.coned.com/en/accounts-billing/your-bill/time-of-use Can you provide some source for your claim it's cheaper in OC?

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[deleted] t1_iqtavrm wrote

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Direct_Rabbit_5389 t1_iqtd53r wrote

Oh. I guess I don't see the need for a conspiracy to explain why two different companies charge different prices for a commodity. They have different pipeline networks, presumably different infrastructure costs, etc.

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[deleted] t1_iqtdozg wrote

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banditoreo t1_iqtsc1p wrote

Sempra does not own PG&E, it owns SoCal gas and SDGE, which are in Southern Ca.

SoCal Edison, is one of the many companies in SoCal, only with SDGE and LA DWP, that provide electricity. But Edison does not sell natural gas.

Best deal in SoCal is Long Beach city that does all three, water, gas, and electricity ....

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banditoreo t1_iqtrsws wrote

Edison is electricity. SDGE is both Gas and Electric. The poster was talking about electricity prices, not natural gas.

Orange Co gets natural gas from SoCalGas , different company.

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estrangedpulse t1_iqqbkbg wrote

2.8€ for m3 is high but not even close to worst. Most people who take new contract now get around 4€.

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Xactilian t1_iqqywwh wrote

Where I live in Manitoba, Canada, the current residential rate is about the equivalent of .15 euros per cubic meter.

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Squire_II t1_iqszyrb wrote

> keep in mind that here in the west we have a huge social safety net

*offer of huge social safety net not valid in US.

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RejZoR t1_iqqv6ai wrote

We just went back some 40 years. Instead of clean sources we’re reverting back to coal…

Solid wood is probably most renewable and neutral if burned correctly when properly dry, but chipped stuff is often full of crap and people burn damp wood that just burns in most nasty ways.

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Ipsonred t1_iqsbjb6 wrote

Hopefully just a temporary blip before things move to renewable energy with heat pumps. I don’t like wood/coal heat sources because of the local pollution it causes, however rising gas and electricity prices are forcing this to happen. It is a matter of survival to stay warm.

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dirk23wright t1_iqqlh93 wrote

Have they never heard of a heat pump? It doesn't get that cold in the Netherlands. Heat pumps are just fine. Hell, we have a ground source H/P in Sweden, and it works great.

Further, have the Dutch never heard of a masonry wood-fired heater? They are traditional in Sweden. You can buy modern versions of them. In these heaters, the flue is convoluted inside the box such that it extracts the maximum heat from the flue gases before exiting up the chimney.

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qtx t1_iqqszr4 wrote

Sweden is 90% stand-alone wood houses. Netherlands is way more densely populated with stone housing blocks. It costs a lot more to add heat pumps 3 stories high and through thick brick stones.

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dirk23wright t1_iqr7sjq wrote

It appears that most Swedes live in apartments.

https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/housing-construction-and-building/housing-construction-and-conversion/dwelling-stock/pong/statistical-news/dwelling-stock-2019-12-31/

Your straw man comment is therefore incorrect. Apartments have centralized heating, usually, and, if not, then each has a heat pump. Adding a wood burning stove to a modern apartment would be impossible as far as I know. Therefore, my comments were directed at people who live in stand-alone houses only.

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hirsutesuit t1_iqr0dp8 wrote

Ground source great pumps work well everywhere, do they not?

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dirk23wright t1_iqr6u7s wrote

I believe they can be made to work well just about anywhere.

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41942319 t1_iqvcnyx wrote

This would be a great solution. Except for the fact that there is currently already a year + waiting list for heat pumps in NL because of supply chain issues. With parts coming from, among other places, Ukraine. And China which is still locking down cities every other week.

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arfbrookwood t1_iqqpaeb wrote

Unless you live in a temperate climate heat pumps have to be really oversized (3x? If it gets really cold) to work in winter. And they take a lot of energy to work. It’s hard to pull heat out of cold dry air. For cold climates geothermal is a better way to go with current technology.

Edit: my comment is about air source heat pumps not ground source heat pumps which, yeah, work really well in cold climates!

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Waste-Temperature626 t1_iqqqr9q wrote

> Unless you live in a temperate climate heat pumps have to be really oversized (3x? If it gets really cold) to work in winter.

I think people are stuck in the past when it comes to heat pumps honestly. People install even air based heat pumps up here in northern Sweden.

Yes, if it gets extremely cold you will probably be using some direct electric heating as well. But how often does it get to -15C in the Netherlands? The level where good modern heatpumps really start to struggle. For a typical Dutch winter heat pumps should be no problem what so ever from a tech standpoint.

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dirk23wright t1_iqr85qc wrote

They should be buying mini-split systems, not wood burning stoves.

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Direct_Rabbit_5389 t1_iqqqdlr wrote

It's not about the size of the pump, it's about the chemical technology used. Newer chemistries stay efficient to lower temperatures compared to older ones. Some are even efficient down below 0F.

(Conversely, a larger pump may not even help if you have a really old chemistry. Your pump would have to switch to backup resistive heat at the point where it's chemistry stops being efficient.)

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hirsutesuit t1_iqr0ac2 wrote

Mine is still 100%+ efficient at -22F (-30C).

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Direct_Rabbit_5389 t1_iqx55cf wrote

100% efficiency is a given -- resistive heating is 100% efficient due to the first law of thermodynamics. The important cutoff is when the heat pump becomes less than 400% efficient, or when the heat pump becomes less financially efficient than a gas furnace.

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hirsutesuit t1_iqxpfjl wrote

No, it's not. The percentage would be different for everyone - and it could change everyday.

If you don't want to set things in fire in order to keep your house warm then anything more efficient than resistive heating is good.

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dirk23wright t1_iqr7yhq wrote

Ground source heat pumps work great in northern climates. We have one in our house in Sweden, half the way up the country.

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arfbrookwood t1_iqrhgn1 wrote

Ah we are talking about different things! A ground source heat pump is (I think) the same thing as a geothermal unit. There are also heat pumps that are NOT ground source but air source. This is what I was talking about.

https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/heat-pumps/

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dirk23wright t1_iqs33at wrote

I realize that.

These days, I believe they make various kinds of air heat pumps that work in cold temperatures. As others have said, they have air heat pumps that are still effective below 0 deg C.

In the Netherlands, there's no excuse to not have an air heat pump if you have a house. It doesn't get cold enough there to worry about efficiency loss. Why they insist on coal and wood is beyond me. Not only that, they aren't even buying good wood stoves, but regular ones. They're not buying the masonry types that have convoluted flues inside of them. Thermal efficiency is dramatically improved that way. Oh well. Just because they're European doesn't mean they're the sharpest tool in the shed.

I think the aversion to most air heat pumps is that they may hate blowing air. I know that Swedes generally don't like forced warm air heating. I assume the Dutch are similar, but I could be wrong.

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Dewey_Cheatem t1_iqu3dw9 wrote

>I think the aversion to most air heat pumps is that they may hate blowing air. I know that Swedes generally don't like forced warm air heating. I assume the Dutch are similar, but I could be wrong.

It's mainly because construction companies cheapened out when they installed heatpumps in newly build houses. Undersized heatpumps hurt their reputation a lot.

And in existing houses you are looking at a 25k investment, plus a increase monthly electricity bill just for having more than 35A single phase.

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HyenaCheeseHeads t1_iqslohr wrote

Ground source = around 1m below the surface. Uses the average temperature of the subsurface layer (around 15C) as source of heat

Geothermal = around 100m+ depths. Uses geothermal energy from the earth's core (or hot springs, geysers, volcanic hot spots)

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arfbrookwood t1_iqtanhd wrote

Air source is not below ground at all. That’s what I’m talking about.

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SmokeysDrunkAlt t1_iqr2yoc wrote

As we are in a state of an emergency with gas shortages and what not, we should require all jobs that can operate remotely stay remote. Just saying. It's for national security afterall.

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sucaji t1_iqrifog wrote

Wouldn't it be more efficient for everyone to be in a smaller number of buildings to heat? Don't get me wrong as I love working from home, but we (California) ran into issues in summers 2020/2021 with people running individual ACs at home during the day causing higher demand than when we all crammed into offices.

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SmokeysDrunkAlt t1_iqrl15i wrote

I was thinking specifically in terms of gas shortages, but I'm not familiar enough with the power grid to know if and how much gas would be used in generating the electricity to know if that would be counter productive or not.

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Proper_Budget_2790 t1_iqr6ax4 wrote

Our house came with a wood stove. In the winter we use a couple of fans to distribute the heat. Works great.

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kabbeljouwtje t1_iqrjwd1 wrote

I am holding my breath , farmhouse not well isolated, 5000m3 gas and 7500 KW power.. in the Netherlands. Renovation is sceduled in 2023 due to a lack of contrators. We live with 8 people of different generations.

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billiarddaddy t1_iqr8o24 wrote

We should tell them about fire pellets

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Turnbob73 t1_iqy4lxu wrote

Thrifty is an understatement

My uncle is Dutch, he and my aunt drove up to my cousins wedding while everyone else flew, but that’s not why I say that. I say that because he bought a little Caesar’s hot & ready down the street from his house and nibbled on that thing for the whole weekend (including his 2-day drive) just so he didn’t have to spend money out at dinner…

Also, he’s not even poor, he owns two houses and has plenty of money.

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BPP1943 t1_iufhkey wrote

Wood and coal are making a huge comeback.

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MentionItAll20202 t1_iqr3g7e wrote

So all that reliance on Russian gas wasn't such a bright idea?? If only someone could have seen this coming. If only Europe was warned. If only they'd learned that Russia isn't an ally and shouldn't be relied on for critical resources...

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blackvegetables t1_iqrjdw5 wrote

"For decades, the Netherlands' domestic gas supply was met by a massive field in the northern province of Groningen, which heated millions of homes and supplied EU countries. In unfortunate timing, this source is being cut off entirely due to the risk of earthquakes."

source: the very same article you're commenting on.

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