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MeatsimPD t1_j928rb6 wrote

Reminder that the West Bank is not Israeli territory and it's a crime under international law to forcibly annex territory through war and to settle your citizens in that territory.

When Russia conquers a chunk of Ukraine, declares part of it it's territory, and moves in Russian citizens to settle there, it's just as illegal as Israel conquering the West Bank, declaring part of it's territory, and moving it's citizens in to settle there.

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Whisky3 t1_j94dsgy wrote

Violence from Palestinians against Israeli settlers in the West Bank is no different than violence from Ukrainians against Russian settlers in Donetsk/Luhansk.

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UNOvven t1_j94lc6r wrote

Ehhhh. If its targeting civilians its unacceptable. Period. There are no conditions to this. A lot of violence from Palestinians against Israeli is random, hitting civilians, regardless of the illegal occupation and tge many warcrimes committed as part of it, that remains unacceptable.

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Bbrhuft t1_j94vg4h wrote

Just to point out that 56% of the population in the Donbas before the war identifed as Russian speaking Ukrainians while 34% identified as ethinic Russian.

The east of the country was ruled by the Romanovs in the 19th century, while west was part of Austro-Hungarian empire for a long time.

Ukranians in the Donbas started speaking Russian, much like how Irish people under British rule rapidly stopped speaking Irish and switched to English in the 19th century, but they didn't stop being Irish.

There was also an immigration of Russians beginning in the 18th century, that population movement increased in the early 20th century because the mines were looking for workers.

Basically, it wasn't as black and white as portrayed by Russian propaganda. Russian speaker doesn't always mean ethinic Russian.

Ukraine didn't go into the Donbas with the intention of ethically cleansing the region of Russians, as explained the situation wasn't black and white, as many identified as Russian speaking Ukrainians.

Russia installed a number of pro-Russian milita leaders, some like Strelkov (involved in shooting down MH17) came from outside, from Russia. Russia stirred up, instigated and suported a separatist movement that Ukraine tried to resist, that was covertly suported by the Russian army. Strange for farmers and miners to find so many T-72s lying around. And, when it seemed that the pro-Russian militas were going to loose, the Russian military secretly invaded Ukraine and routed the Ukranian army.

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MeatsimPD t1_j94onvw wrote

Except that Donetsk and Luhansk are part of Ukraine, not Russia. And the West Bank is not part of Israel.

But of course violence against civilians is wrong, the issue needs to be solved by the governments involves not by killing or harming civilians (even if they are illegally settling outside their country)

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freshgeardude t1_j92yrbu wrote

The west Bank has never be part of a formal country as the Jordanians occupied it in 1949 after it was previously in british and ottoman hands. Until there's a Palestinian country with defined borders, it's still in dispute. Which is all to say, Israel has already shown a willingness to evacuate its citizens in exchange for peace (see: Sinai, Gaza, and proposed Golan heights).

Additionally, Ukraine thinks of itself as Israel in the conflict, not the Palestinians

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waiv t1_j9372ty wrote

It's occupied territory, according to every single international human rights organization and the Israeli Supreme Court. Only the Israeli government insists on that silly "disputed territories" name as a way to pretend they are not committing war crimes.

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MeatsimPD t1_j938ffe wrote

> The west Bank has never be part of a formal country

Even if this were true, it doesn't mean it's "free real estate" that any other country can just go in and settle without regard to the people who live there. Colonialism is not a thing anymore.

>Which is all to say, Israel has already shown a willingness to evacuate its citizens in exchange for peace (see: Sinai, Gaza, and proposed Golan heights).

That's true, Israel did withdraw from the Sinai and has a lasting peace with Egypt. That withdraw includes removing the settlements Israelis had established.

But Israel has not withdrawn from the Golan Heights or the West Bank, though it did withdraw from Gaza. These examples show that while removing settlements doesn't immediately lead to peace, it is a necessary pre condition.

>Additionally, Ukraine thinks of itself as Israel in the conflict, not the Palestinians

Does it? Ukraine isn't forcibly occupying territory outside its recognized borders, but Israel is

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freshgeardude t1_j93mgg2 wrote

>Even if this were true, it doesn't mean it's "free real estate" that any other country can just go in and settle without regard to the people who live there. Colonialism is not a thing anymore.

I mean there're still multiple conflicts on this planet with disputed lands. And you're pretending the settlements are specifically displacing existing communities to move in Israeli communities. That's not happening

> That's true, Israel did withdraw from the Sinai and has a lasting peace with Egypt. That withdraw includes removing the settlements Israelis had established. > > But Israel has not withdrawn from the Golan Heights or the West Bank, though it did withdraw from Gaza. These examples show that while removing settlements doesn't immediately lead to peace, it is a necessary pre condition.

Factually untrue. Actually the opposite.

After a peace agreement with Egypt, then settlements were removed. As for Gaza, they removed them first and have Hamas now. There's zero chance Israel is making the same mistake..

>Does it? Ukraine isn't forcibly occupying territory outside its recognized borders, but Israel is

Perhaps this conflict is more complicated than you think.

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MeatsimPD t1_j93osiy wrote

> And you're pretending the settlements are specifically displacing existing communities to move in Israeli communities. That's not happening

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/20/land-beyond-road-forbidden-israeli-settler-shepherds-displacing-palestinians

https://www.nrc.no/shorthand/stories/in-the-west-bank-segregated-roads-displace-palestinians/index.html

No one can honestly say that all the land occupied by Israeli settlers was empty or unowned prior to their arrival. Honestly you've just made one of the most absurd statements about the West Bank I've ever heard, so absurd I have to believe it's a deliberate lie because no one could be so misinformed

>As for Gaza, they removed them first and have Hamas now. There's zero chance Israel is making the same mistake

Are you telling me that the rise of Hamas in Gaza is because Israel removed it's settlements?

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freshgeardude t1_j93ql9a wrote

Did a single settlement consist of kicking out Palestinians, razing it, and building a Jewish community ontop or are you going to send me articles about animals grazing or roads being put up?

>Are you telling me that the rise of Hamas in Gaza is because Israel removed it's settlements?

No I'm saying the one time settlements were preemptively removed has lead to countless wars with Hamas. Israel isn't leaving the west Bank willingly and the majority settlment blocks are never going to be evacuated. Both sides know this and land swaps have already in theory been agreed on

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MeatsimPD t1_j93sumo wrote

> Did a single settlement consist of kicking out Palestinians, razing it, and building a Jewish community ontop or are you going to send me articles about animals grazing or roads being put up?

I honestly believe you being deliberately obtuse if you're going to tell me it doesn't matter to people whose livelihoods is raising animals whether or not they have access to grazing lands.

But to answer your question the answer is yes, here's some examples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehelim

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brukhin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modi%27in_Illit

And here are the camps many of the people who have lost their homes now live in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee_camps

Even today Palestinian homes are being torn down https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-ramps-up-demolition-of-palestinian-homes-in-jerusalem

>Israel isn't leaving the west Bank willingly and the majority settlment blocks are never going to be evacuated.

I don't disagree, Israel's military occupation is permanent for the foreseeable future, but none of this changes the facts:

Fact 1) The West Bank is not part of Israel's territory

Fact 2) Annexing territory by force is against international law

Fact 3) Settling your citizens on seized lands outside of your state's territory is against international law.

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