signed

The petition asks for more rail warehouses and expanded rail services. Both of these topics were on here recently with people complaining about too much of both those proposals! The dichotomy of living in NJ :-)

> Money and labor should be redirected to public transit, transit-oriented development, bicycle infrastructure, and road safety improvements.

...which would nothing to alleviate congestion from long-distance traffic on the affected highway. Are the same people going to complain about continuing traffic on the four-lane Turnpike and the alternate route of I-295?

> would nothing to alleviate congestion from long-distance traffic on the affected highway.

Wider highways don't alleviate congestion.

Applegarth Road in Monroe Township, Middlesex County would beg to differ.

Hell yeah and Sucked when the Turnpike narrowed down to 3 lanes just below exit 8a. Every Friday night during the Summer absolute shit show!

If it solves a bottleneck, then it does

Widen it and add interchange for 42

The bottleneck is the tunnel.

It doesn't.

In not much time initial relief disappears. Widening only gets more cars on the road and encourages sprawl.

There's a lot of research on induced traffic demand, the more accessible something is (like a wider road), the more people will be attracted to it. Eventually congestion will return.

Not completely true.

Do you mean initially? Relief gone within 5 years. Not a long term solution. Not good planning. Horrible for air quality and the planet.

No.

That would be true for most highways except the Turnpike which is used as a thru road as it was always designed.

I know about induced demand and the problems of many lanes causing traffic just by being too wide.

Do you have research specifically exempting the NJ Turnpike from induced demand? It must be of high enough quality to rule out a causal effect.

Saying "this time is different" doesn't cut it.

Fuck you. Widen it.

Yes we have a major train line that runs much of it. Plus our region is unique to much of the country.

>Do you have research specifically exempting the NJ Turnpike from induced demand?

?

>> Research. Economics. Experts. The DOT.

> Fuck you. Widen it.

My damn eyes. Warehouses were built NOT houses. Com-on this is NJ nothing we do is normal to the rest of the country. We are building infill housing in the north and yes new developments other areas. We have more transit than most areas outside of NJ/NY/CT and people are moving closer to cities not further away.

Don't see how this justifies turnpike widening or exempts the turnpike from induced demand.

It was widened down to 6 because of the warehouses and it should be widened due to additional traffic. This is the opposite of induced demand. The demand is already there.

I commute from exit 3 to the de bridge. This is a solution to a imagined problem. I have never once sat in congestion traffic north or south during rush hour Only time i hit traffic is getting off exit 3, truck traffic

BTW we are arguing over something we could never change if the NJTP want to do something they do it.

It's actually the typical induced demand scenario. Congestion (demand already there) -> widening -> initial relief -> induced demand -> congestion. Repeat.

I'm trying anyway.

Except very few are moving that far south to commute to NYC or N-NJ.

The research on induced demand includes interstates like the NJ Turnpike.

Yes but the NJTP is a toll road so traffic can be controlled by increasing tolls vs “freeways”

The tolls we have don't reduce congestion. Only congestion pricing reduces congestion by reducing driving. We don't have CP because it's politically toxic. See: NJ politicians reacting to NYC doing CP.

If you want congestion pricing instead of widening the road, I'm with you. It doesn't justify widening though. CP replaces widening, in fact.

We do have on peak and off peak pricing right now which is congestion pricing. Except we aren’t sensitive to it. We will pay what ever it take to ride the road. Congestion pricing in NYC I believe will be the same traffic won’t improve. We need to build alternatives.

No.

Are they going to take out existing homes to do this because I don’t see how they won’t have to in some spots.

Not congestion pricing. It doesn't scale with real time congestion. NYC's program will be the first in the country.

You can't conclude people will pay whatever it takes to ride the road based on pathetically low tolls relative to the full social cost of driving. CP is another policy with lots of research behind it. It works.

It negates widening.

I propose alternatives in the petition.

The absolute catastrophe of traffic that occurs with people and trucks needing to get off at exit 3 then take local roads to get to Philly needs to be addressed.

If they managed to fix that fucking hell hole of an exit and merge on to 168, things would be smooth sailing. There are some days I'd rather drive past it to Exit 2 and get home from there.

Indeed. I propose alternatives.

It seems the only way is to connect the turnpike and 42.

What are your alternatives?

I refuse to vote for any politician that talks about road widening before they discuss better train infrastructure.

Isn't "work from home" keeping more cars off the roads? I drove to work the other day on a Monday and thought it was a holiday as there were literally no cars on the road during rush hour.

Widen it

No.

The most direct way to reduce congestion is congestion pricing. Tolls that scale in real time to reflect traffic conditions. But that won't happen in NJ soon. Look at the controversy surrounding NYC daring to create the first CP program in the country.

I call for expanding alternatives to driving and better urban planning to make driving less necessary. Public transit, trains, BRT, biking and walking infra, the GCL (expand PATCO tbh), etc.

Remove trucks from the road by linking warehouses to freight rail instead of roads. We already do it in Logan Township. Do it more.

And it's a non-solution.

Most widening doesn't help with traffic. But widening were there is a bottleneck because a highway goes from four lanes to three or three to two does make sense sometimes. I'm all for the widening of route 17 between route 4 and where the lights begin because that will get rid of the bottle neck. I'm against the widening of the turnpike extension towards the holland tunnel because the bottle neck is really cause by the tunnel, not the drop off of lanes. (Leavening the tunnel it might make sense).

For the turnpike extension they only want to move the jam from the tollbooths to further down.

Also keeping RT 24 at three lanes to 287 would help it from being so slow from the Short Hills mall.

The train line runs alongside by about 10 miles north of Trenton, but South of Trenton there's only smaller lines mostly used for freight. If anything, we need to upgrade the network and shift more interstate trucks off the road/highway network onto Rail.

That is interesting. I have lived in Deal/West Long Branch (near Asbury Park), Lacey and my girlfriend went to Stockton (Exit 44, I would visit her every weekend). I also go to Wildwood every September. I can't think of a time when I didn't sit in traffic on the GSP at some point. Except maybe for the dead of winter. But that is an interesting perspective.