Submitted by takemynerjy t3_1251ljz in newjersey
takemynerjy OP t1_je3067w wrote
Reply to comment by Practical_Argument50 in Petition: Don’t widen the NJ Turnpike in South Jersey by takemynerjy
Do you mean initially? Relief gone within 5 years. Not a long term solution. Not good planning. Horrible for air quality and the planet.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je30jho wrote
That would be true for most highways except the Turnpike which is used as a thru road as it was always designed.
I know about induced demand and the problems of many lanes causing traffic just by being too wide.
takemynerjy OP t1_je3218a wrote
Do you have research specifically exempting the NJ Turnpike from induced demand? It must be of high enough quality to rule out a causal effect.
Saying "this time is different" doesn't cut it.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je32dcf wrote
Yes we have a major train line that runs much of it. Plus our region is unique to much of the country.
takemynerjy OP t1_je333y2 wrote
>Do you have research specifically exempting the NJ Turnpike from induced demand?
?
Practical_Argument50 t1_je33zse wrote
My damn eyes. Warehouses were built NOT houses. Com-on this is NJ nothing we do is normal to the rest of the country. We are building infill housing in the north and yes new developments other areas. We have more transit than most areas outside of NJ/NY/CT and people are moving closer to cities not further away.
takemynerjy OP t1_je34dmm wrote
Don't see how this justifies turnpike widening or exempts the turnpike from induced demand.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je365ot wrote
BTW we are arguing over something we could never change if the NJTP want to do something they do it.
takemynerjy OP t1_je369qt wrote
I'm trying anyway.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je34w3l wrote
It was widened down to 6 because of the warehouses and it should be widened due to additional traffic. This is the opposite of induced demand. The demand is already there.
takemynerjy OP t1_je366qn wrote
It's actually the typical induced demand scenario. Congestion (demand already there) -> widening -> initial relief -> induced demand -> congestion. Repeat.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je36dtk wrote
Except very few are moving that far south to commute to NYC or N-NJ.
takemynerjy OP t1_je36y9v wrote
The research on induced demand includes interstates like the NJ Turnpike.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je377xx wrote
Yes but the NJTP is a toll road so traffic can be controlled by increasing tolls vs “freeways”
takemynerjy OP t1_je37om7 wrote
The tolls we have don't reduce congestion. Only congestion pricing reduces congestion by reducing driving. We don't have CP because it's politically toxic. See: NJ politicians reacting to NYC doing CP.
If you want congestion pricing instead of widening the road, I'm with you. It doesn't justify widening though. CP replaces widening, in fact.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je382nr wrote
We do have on peak and off peak pricing right now which is congestion pricing. Except we aren’t sensitive to it. We will pay what ever it take to ride the road. Congestion pricing in NYC I believe will be the same traffic won’t improve. We need to build alternatives.
takemynerjy OP t1_je38ocn wrote
Not congestion pricing. It doesn't scale with real time congestion. NYC's program will be the first in the country.
You can't conclude people will pay whatever it takes to ride the road based on pathetically low tolls relative to the full social cost of driving. CP is another policy with lots of research behind it. It works.
It negates widening.
I propose alternatives in the petition.
baylee13070 t1_je6jn5c wrote
Most widening doesn't help with traffic. But widening were there is a bottleneck because a highway goes from four lanes to three or three to two does make sense sometimes. I'm all for the widening of route 17 between route 4 and where the lights begin because that will get rid of the bottle neck. I'm against the widening of the turnpike extension towards the holland tunnel because the bottle neck is really cause by the tunnel, not the drop off of lanes. (Leavening the tunnel it might make sense).
Practical_Argument50 t1_je6kn40 wrote
For the turnpike extension they only want to move the jam from the tollbooths to further down.
Practical_Argument50 t1_je6kt00 wrote
Also keeping RT 24 at three lanes to 287 would help it from being so slow from the Short Hills mall.
Nexis4Jersey t1_je726pj wrote
The train line runs alongside by about 10 miles north of Trenton, but South of Trenton there's only smaller lines mostly used for freight. If anything, we need to upgrade the network and shift more interstate trucks off the road/highway network onto Rail.
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