Submitted by schillerstone t3_11rywe7 in newhampshire
A_Man_Who_Writes t1_jcaxyr3 wrote
Reply to comment by schillerstone in How is storm response and two year tree trimming cheaper than burying electric lines?? by schillerstone
How can you imagine otherwise? They already have the tools and personnel to fix outages and trim trees. How much more do you think they would need to bury lines all over a mostly rural state that’s mostly made out of rock? It would be astronomically expensive.
schillerstone OP t1_jcaygie wrote
With that attitude, we'd never have running water. Power is an essential utility and should be buried. Period.
Would you like your water lines above ground because it's too expensive to bury? Think about all of the expensive things we've accomplished.
But also, look at my updated post with the economic implications of power outages. Big picture here. It's safer and cheaper for the one time expense of burying them.
vexingsilence t1_jcb433u wrote
Water lines can't be above ground, they'd freeze. They also aren't present throughout the state. Plenty of people are still on well water because it's financially prohibitive to run pipes beyond a certain population density. Same deal with natural gas. Same deal with sewage, low density areas use septic systems.
Shadeddragonman t1_jcbe73e wrote
Buried lines fault. There are many 100 year old lines running around still working just fine. Haven’t found a 30 year old run that’s hasn’t have had work done on it.
vexingsilence t1_jcbhohs wrote
There was a time when Boston was having serious problems with manhole covers and other metal plates getting electrified. It does introduce new problems that above-ground lines don't tend to have. A downed line from a pole is easy to see. A fault underground, not so much.
schillerstone OP t1_jcayott wrote
Unless you can give me a comprehensive cost comparison of business as usual compared to safeguarding the grid, your comments are purely assumptions and protecting the status quo
A_Man_Who_Writes t1_jcaz6oj wrote
That’s true. I relent. There’s no way society will progress unless we’re willing to make massive initial changes in infrastructure (not sarcasm).
schillerstone OP t1_jcb2tqj wrote
Woah. this truce is exciting
Don't mind me being all heated , I just hate watching America's downfall. I work now work at a very prosperous institution who is investing TONs of money and time into climate change "resiliency" which includes infrastructure changes to protect the grid (this institute is including plans to help the local people during disasters as well).
My Ted Talk Regarding the OT issue. I am for the working man which means that I don't think people should need to work OT for 36 hours straight to be prosperous. Imagine a time when we are proactive and not reactive, people make enough money to not work the equivalent of two jobs, and instead, spend time with family.
The mini pandemic baby boom is due to people being home and not working themselves to death, as has been the norm. Prosperous people have their needs met plus time and money to recreate after just one job. Eversource shareholders must make a minimum of 13% return on investment. Imagine if that money instead went to non executive workers and to safeguard our grid. Close Ted Talk.
ZacPetkanas t1_jcb1u5t wrote
> Unless you can give me a comprehensive cost comparison of business as usual compared to safeguarding the grid, your comments are purely assumptions and protecting the status quo
As are yours suggesting that burying lines would be cheaper. Shouldn't you have to provide said same?
ReauxChambeaux t1_jcb2mto wrote
Boom
schillerstone OP t1_jcbd9eg wrote
No because I know for a fact that burying lines is done all over the world. This means that other people did the analysis and determined it was worth the money.
economic theory measure activities by total value, not absolute dollars. The value of a stable electricity grid, especially considering climate change resiliency, outweighs the lazy status quo and shareholder return that prevents this system upgrade.
ZacPetkanas t1_jcbet46 wrote
> No because I know for a fact that burying lines is done all over the world. This means that other people did the analysis and determined it was worth the money.
Burying lines in Demark (for example) is a whole different kettle of fish than NH. Be specific and back up your assertion that it would be cost effective in NH to bury lines though ledge, etc.
> economic theory measure activities by total value, not absolute dollars.
What's the unit of measurement? Kilograms, gallons, yards?
schillerstone OP t1_jcbg80g wrote
I took a graduate level economic course in the spring of 2022 and I was shocked to learn how economic theory works. It's not what you think. Example, I put a car worth 12k on sale for 15k. You buy the car for 16k, who loses ? The car is worth 16k and you don't lose because you wanted to pay that much and so 16k is how much the car is worth to you.
The economic analysis of the value of buried lines would include the value of ALL the activity that relies upon electricity and is lost when it goes out. Materials and labor are not the only measure.
ZacPetkanas t1_jcbh8lu wrote
And that's measured in......?
Finally, show your economic analysis that it would be cheaper to move lines underground, and maintain them underground as well. Don't forget the costs of diverting traffic as the linemen are working through the road surface as well as the extra costs of paving the roads because now the road crew must work around the manholes, etc.
You've posted on this thread about your feelings and demanded that other people provide you with facts counter to your feelings. Perhaps you should first provide the facts, no?
schillerstone OP t1_jcbjtqj wrote
Did you see my edited link above that outages are costing the us economy $150 BILLION a year.
What is the value of a life lost because of failed oxygen machines ? https://www.wmbfnews.com/2022/12/27/man-dies-christmas-eve-after-power-outage-turns-off-oxygen-machine/ Would your opinion change if we had wind storms monthly? Wind is speeding up and will continue to.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-worlds-winds-are-speeding-up/
Ironically, cutting trees can mess up wind patterns and cause micro bursts.https://ncseagrant.ncsu.edu/coastwatch/current-issue/summer-2019/dont-cut-down-that-tree-preserving-a-protective-buffer-against-high-speed-winds/
Curing cancer costs a lot too but no one is giving up
ZacPetkanas t1_jcbkft2 wrote
> Did you see my edited link above that outages are costing the us economy $150 BILLION a year. > >
NH. This is a NH subreddit.
So that's a "no" then. You have nothing but your opinion on the subject. And that's fine, but in my opinion you shouldn't go around demanding detailed numbers from other people when you've got jack squat.
I'm all in favor of discussing the pros and cons of your suggestion but you've got nothing to discuss, just your opinion on the matter.
vexingsilence t1_jcb31sf wrote
>As someone who works in the industry, it gets old hearing that we should just bury the lines. This works in dense areas, but for rural areas (like the vast majority of NH) it is extremely cost prohibitive. Installing buried conduit, manholes, transformer foundations, etc. is often upwards of $200-$300 per FOOT of buried conduit. Even more expensive if it has to be concrete-encased, or God forbid there is ledge (rock) in the way that needs to be hammered out (btw this is New Hampshire, the Granite State, there is ledge absolutely EVERYWHERE). And that doesn't even include the cost of installing (pulling, splicing) the actual cables and transformers themselves.
From /u/vwturbo in this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/newhampshire/comments/11qy0mu/what_is_the_deal_with_the_nh_grid/
schillerstone OP t1_jcb3v5b wrote
Thanks for the details but I am not moved. People literally build homes into blasted ledge everyday. We drill water wells through ledge. We drill for oil and gas everywhere. We mine for metal ores, which is also rock. I mean, what a lame excuse. I think all of the people talking about ledge just remember the times when they personally cannot move something from their yard. We have heavy equipment, sonics drills, and dynamite. This is nothing new.
With your attitude, we'd never have had fiber optic cables, city sewer and water, oil and gas pipelines, etc.
vexingsilence t1_jcb567r wrote
>With your attitude, we'd never have had fiber optic cables, city sewer and water, oil and gas pipelines, etc.
As a state, we do not have those things. Water, sewage, and gas tend to only be available in parts of the state that have the density to make it cost effective to bury those things. Otherwise you have well, a septic system, and either heating oil or propane.
Fiber rollout has been slower in areas with buried utilities. It takes more time to install than simply running them on poles. The funny part is that once you reach a high enough density, there aren't many trees left to fall on the lines.
jlangemann-man t1_jcbma88 wrote
I have to ask, have you been to areas of the state (such as Newcaste Island) where the water pipes are above ground, on the surface, because it is too prohibitive for many of the reasons listed above to have them below ground, like you see them in other areas?
schillerstone OP t1_jcbmkir wrote
No and that sounds crazy, but I believe it
Shadeddragonman t1_jcbfvo0 wrote
Yes they do and they pay a pretty penny to do so. As for mining ore that is done for profit. No profit in ledge
Yes we can it just costs money. Last time a heard a study about it 10 years or so. Would cost every man woman and child in nh 36000 to do it.
thamurse t1_jcief8i wrote
usually the burden of proof is on the person making the initial claim/point....
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