Such an absurd proposal to ban state funding

Translation: "I want somebody else's money."

I'm a bitter gremlin who feeds off the negative emotional energy generated by traffic jams. What's your excuse?

I can thing of no excuse at all for your being a bitter gremlin.

Everybody who wants this should get together and start a 503c whatever and fund it.

We can stick it to the fascist legislators and show them the power of the working class.

We should do the same for all services: fire, police, roads, airports, and the marines!

Anti fascists unite!

The State House continues to be a big, gold-domed clown car.

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Thanks OP. I emailed and suggested ITL.

We just wasted $10 M+ to take down a balloon. I think we can spend a little for some infrastructure.

You realize that fascists are an edge case right - so just about everyone is anti-fascist by default.

Keep your libertarian brainrot out of our state.

This is because certain politicians have a stake in the bus lines and park and ride stops that are leased to the state. Not to mention the Auto Dealers Organization and all the people worried that Passenger trains providing decent affordable ways to Boston for jobs would gentrify the state too much and make it too "woke".

I have lived here most of my life and seen this state actively fight anything that would bring in new people to live and not just visit. The state complains we don't have progress or money to do things but then actively fights anything that would bring that in.

​

This reminds me of NH fighting Real ID until the Feds said NO MORE FUNDING if you don't comply.

I'm furious, they know we are getting closer and closer to rail finally returning to this state. Connecting nashua-manch-concord to the Boston metropolitan area would do wonders for our economy and the environment. It only hurts big oil and the auto industry, conveniently the guys lobbying against it and donating to the legislators.

Please please please reach out. We cannot afford to go backwards, this project will fix traffic and help our fuel and heat oil prices stay low by dramatically reducing oil use from automobiles. Also uh the environment lol

While this bill is fucking idiotic (what possible fair and reciprocal reason could you have to ban future research and proposals?) and I like the idea of a Manchester to Boston line, I’ve never seen anyone show me money numbers that made any sense. Fleets of electric buses are presently far more feasible and affordable.

ETA: I just emailed them asking them to kill the bill, expressing my concern that closing out one option in perpetuity in spite of an uncertain future could harm the citizens and economy of the state. You guys should, too, it’s easy.

I don't.

When will it pay for itself?

Keep your hands out of everyone else's pockets.

Christ, not you again.

Excellent response to a reasonable suggestion /s

Each rider will have their own private car - which is nice.

Never. It will be a money pit like the T in Boston

At this point, I’m not even sure the T is properly solvent.

You're the only one who thinks you're reasonable. If you don't want your taxes to be used for public works, then move somewhere else. Otherwise, kindly fuck off and stop complaining.

I don't want my tax dollars to be put into a project that is a black hole for money. A rail line in NH will NEVER pay for itself and you're a fool if you think it will. It's not something that should be subsidized by taxpayers.

A common misconception in America is that services as such should generate "profit". While rail service like this is likely to never generate raw profit, it is astronomically lower to maintain than roadways as rail can go many years without maintenance and there are near zero treatment needs such as plowing and pothole repair.

The real gain or "profit" are two categories, local economy and gains with people who do still commute.

For the local community it's as easy to think hey, someone can live in Manchester and commute near Boston, this person lives here this generates revenue for local business with rent food etc.. it's proven time and time again rail infrastructure causes drastic economic growth near where it is implemented. Especially given that those who use it aren't tied to automobiles which frees up a lot of income for other expenses of theirs. These are naturally reinvested into the local economy.

For the other part, automobile traffic, trains can transport an impressive number of people quickly, not only will this remove those cars from the roads removing traffic we all hate, but it removes the cost of those roadways (granted the shrink or at least stop growing) which are dozens of times more expensive to maintain than a railway (for some reason we are all okay spilling our taxes on "one more lane" but not actually fixing the problem.

There are endless gains to rail as we see how most other developed countries have most of their population commuting by it.

Americans just need to stop thinking of it as a profit project but a tax saving project and economic growth opportunity.

Taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize failing business models.

If we're getting rid of things that don't directly pay for themselves, driving is first on the chopping block by a very wide margin.

The t is different than commuter rail in Boston. Kelois is a private company that runs that rail. My understanding is it is they do make money, but definitely fact check me there.

Mbta is a different gov run disaster

Can you please elaborate?

There is no mode of transportation that this applies more to than the personal automobile. The rail link will be profitable once we cut the dead weight by banning cars.

Driving is the most heavily subsidized mode of transportation. Logically it needs to be the first to go.

I briefly worked for Pan Am Railways right before csx took over. I will say that despite being an awful employer…csx does a great job of maintaining track. It will be a while before passenger rail returns because all the track between nashua and concord will need to be replaced as well as signal systems being installed. All this will have to be done before trains can move faster than 10 mph. It would certainly be a great way to get to boston for sporting events and concerts without having to drive to the commuter rail.

How is it subsidized, I mean?

• shoots self in foot not understanding where taxes go. Rail would lower your taxes

Roads get massive subsidies. How do you think all of the road work is paid for? The gas tax(es) don't come anywhere close to paying for it.

Are you forgetting the massive registration fees each year? Tolls? Property taxes?

edit: I'm all for preventing people who dont pay those things from using the roads lmao

Drivers don't pay for it, so clearly someone else does. Not the negative externalities of the pollution they're responsible for, not the wear and tear on the roads and infrastructure (beyond a laughable token amount), not the cost of parking for free on public land, etc.

If we want to make driving profitable, we need to massively raise the gas tax for the pollution, implement an annual fee based on miles traveled and weight to cover all road and auto infrastructure costs (including those currently paid for by the Federal Government), use congestion pricing, deploy automated traffic enforcement cameras, and ensure that all vehicles parked on public property pay the prevailing market price for that footprint of land.

I always get a chuckle out of the lack of self-awareness when people talk about a rail option not paying for itself. Even if the ticket price is a loss, moving someone from a car to the train is a net gain because driving is a much larger loss.

> Are you forgetting the massive registration fees each year? Tolls?

No. Still doesn't cover the cost. Roughly half of road spending in the country comes from general funds, not user fees (gas tax, registration, license, other costs you only pay for driving).

> Property taxes?

Are not a tax paid by drivers specifically - the use of that money to subsidize rail is no different from using it to subsidize roads.

Either they're both "failing business models", or looking at basic transportation infrastructure through the lens of profit/loss is a dumb idea....in both cases.

Where do the funds come from? I’m asking because you seem like the expert in this.

I think it makes more sense to connect NH cities and towns to Manch airport than it does to connect these towns to Boston. Why does it need to include Boston at all? If money wasn’t an object; build two corridors (one along 16, one along 93) that have a north south and central transfer spur… I still don’t see why we need to connect to Boston. Maybe if North and South station were connected but they aren’t

Literally everyone who use the roads pay for them. According to multiple sources, the roads are paid for with: Gas tax (state AND Fed), tolls, registration fees etc. If you don't drive, you don't ultimately pay for those things.

The rail line? This will NOT be paid for with JUST rail line users' funds.

Right? At most my wife and I will do a day trip to boston. We'll leave after breakfast, home around dinner. Parking is a PITA and expensive, driving around Boston is a clusterfuck. If I could take a train right into downtown, instead of driving down, catching a bruins game, and driving home, we'd make a weekend of it, take the train in, shop around, hit up the bars, stay in a hotel, and take the train back the next day.

Not to mention there's perks coming the OTHER way too- flying out of MHT is a lot cheaper than BOS sometimes, so being able to just hop a train up to manch and fly out from there would make people far more likely to consider it as an option. That draws more people in, more money brought into the local economy.

Lol! No it wouldn’t.

>Fleets of electric buses are presently far more feasible and affordable.

Isn't that just in the short term though? From my understanding the real savings from rail is long term, as there's far less maintenance required on a passenger car for a train than there is for any highway vehicle. Not to mention we already have bus service to boston from as far away as Concord. I don't know about you, but I despise taking the concord coach. Bout the only time I do it is if I'm flying out. It's not practical as it is now for going to a bruins game, catching a concert, etc.

89 too please! I'd love to have a train from Lebanon to MHT.

They think by connecting to Manchester there will be more commuters taking the rail.

I agree that NH does not need nor should be connected to MA at all. NH needs to do what is best for all of NH. MA is not known for its highly efficient railway systems.

A railway system is not really needed if other means of transportation can be expanded. An intrastate bus system to get people to different areas with expanded schedules would work best in my opinion.

I’m sure you support a VMT tax then?

If you libertarian nuts somehow took over MA and abolished the T, their entire economy would collapse. Boston cannot function without it. It’s not built for cars. Traffic is already hopelessly gridlocked. Cars never should have been allowed there in the first place.

The T is to government as IT is to business. Yeah, it’s a “cost center” and makes no money, but everything else depends on it. Only dumbass beancounters don’t get that.

> Rail would lower your taxes

How so? The roads aren't going to be decommissioned so taxes would be spent on roads and rail. Where does the savings come from?

The best ‘technology’ to fight congestion is literally the oldest form of technologies we have from the industrial era. Yet, the dinosaurs who rule the state are hell bent on the farce that cars=independence.

The argument that rail is too expensive is also laughable. They just widened what-two miles?- on the highway by Salem, and at what cost? The dirty little secret in the world of civil engineering is that adding lanes to highways does nothing but add to congestion.

Going to be real I don’t support any taxes… but the others are already there and I understand that some taxation may be required. I don’t in ANY WAY support “new” taxes without removing taxation from elsewhere though.

NH actually does better than the average state, to be clear - it's around #13 - about 60% of road costs were covered by those kinds of user fees in FY 2016 Source.

> Where do the funds come from? I’m asking because you seem like the expert in this.

Other "general" tax revenues.

Especially at the federal level. The infrastructure bill that's sending billions in $ to NH, is not coming from the gas tax.

The normal federal share of road infrastructure projects is increasingly not coming from gas taxes. The federal highway trust fund that pays for those is theoretically funded by the gas tax....but the tax hasn't been increased since 1993, things clearly cost more today than 30 years ago, and so Congress transfers billions per year of general revenue (income taxes and the like) to plug the gap.

Why wouldn't you want to connect a railway and have less idiots on the road?

If you can't see the benefit of having a commuter rail in a state devoid of public transport, irrespective of its profitability, then I think you must just be biased. I don't care if it makes money. That's not what it's for. The point is to provide a service. It lightens the load on our highways. Drives commerce around its stops. Provides a cheaper alternative to traveling by car.

Not everything has to be profit-driven. Lose that mindset.

I’m imagining probably ten times the bus traffic we have now with regularly spaced schedules that would be workable for daily commuters. Imagining, of course.

So you’re a child. Got it

Thanks for attacking me over thinking taxes are stupid.

Your source literally says that the roads aren't self funded and rely on at least $144 million in federal subsidies. That's not "paying for itself".

FY2023 report states say Transportation costs are at $680,627,309. Our dedicated intake from highways tolls, car reg, and other miscellaneous funds is $432,055,480. After that federal highway funding that'd leave around $104 million coming out the general tax funds each year. How did you reach the conclusion that it's self funded from that?

But that only works if you reduce the number of people driving, otherwise you're adding to the traffic problem. Maybe it's just me but I feel like there's a stigma associated with riding a bus that isn't there for taking a train- so for convincing people to take public transport, I think a train will get better adoption than busses. I could very well be wrong, this is just my personal bias- If it was convienient to my workplace, i'd take a train every day. I don't care if the bus is coming to my office door I would drive my own car before taking the bus.

Didddddd you know gas taxes aren’t just state?

That’s the real issue here. Meanwhile, the geezers are confused why their children are moving away when they can’t afford to buy a house here and professional careers are few and far between.

Sorry but money rules the world and there’s no way that’s changing any time soon. No one is entitled to anyone else’s labor or money.

Then live off the grid. The roads you use, the electricity you use, the police, fire department...hell, even the food you buy are subsidized by taxpayer money. You can't pick and choose. It sounds like you just want to complain and be hypocritical. This is the system you live in. You are a part of it.

If you want to try analyzing the Federal Highway Trust Fund and show the match between the inlays to NH and the outlays over the various fuel taxes be my guest, you still haven't addressed the nearly $100 million deficit. Kinda weird you ignore that part completely.

When was the last time the federal gas tax was raised? It's long past due.

In addition to the other response by SgtToastie, this STILL doesn't take into consideration the costs of pollution, congestion, or condemning valuable land to uneconomic parking.

Every single person that complains about the cost of the train is a driver that loses their minds at the idea of actually paying for the full cost of their car.

Brightline in Florida completed rail there with all private funding. No reason it can't happen here. They got up and running in 4 years. Compared to Californias state funded rail its quite different.

The scale of the projects isn't the same but the outcomes sort of speak for themselves:

• in florida you have the brightline rail. privately funded started construction 2014 and opened in 2018

• in california you have the states CHSR plan, construction started 2015 after 6 years of reviews, and isn't slated to complete until 2029 at the earliest.

Well keep it in Boston. That way you can be a good little lemming.

It’s illegal to live off the grid. I would if I could without the threat of imprisonment 🤷🏼‍♀️

How many more studies you want to pay for for a service that won't actually get built?

They likely have some personal financial incentive to not change the status quo would be my guess.

The commuter rail is fantastic. And we have likely tens of thousands of NH citizens commuting to Boston everyday for anything from work to shopping. It makes total sense

That's great that Florida managed that. The government exists for the sole purpose of improving our lives as citizens and funding public goods like public transit and critical infrastructure. I think the option to fund state projects is always better than not having the option to fund state projects.

Because a large portion of our state currently drives into Mass and utilizes their commuter rail system already, or commutes all the way to Boston. Not to mention everyone else who is commuting to Boston for anything from sporting events to shopping to flying out.

Manch airport isn’t a substitute for Logan. Flight options are terrible and limited.

This would help a large chunk of the state on a number of things and just makes entirely more sense than busses.. which defeats the point of reducing traffic and not having to sit in it all day.

Go live in Somalia.

Stop being poor

My taxes are more than your salary. Stop having the IQ of a 3rd grader

I’m sure, guy.

No one likes paying taxes, but we live in a society. A VMT almost feels un-American, doesn’t it? It exposes use fees in general for what they really are: a crock of shit. If we subsidize roads, we should subsidize railroads too.

I hear the taxes are non-existent in Somalia if you ever decide you don’t like the benefits of society.

It’s a guarantee. Libertarians inherently have smaller brains than the average American. It’s genetic. You’re inferior, which explains your ability to be so naive that you’d believe in libertarian principles. Small children who live in candyland.

I literally said I understand that some taxation is required. New taxes encourage more unchecked spending. They’ll never go down. They just grab more and more.

Man, you are down bad. My condolences.

Probably in bed with big oil, they realize that a large part of NH commutes for work less commuters less revenue

Right? Sue me for wanting to be left tf alone.

Okay, Mr Billionaire. Since you’re so rich, why don’t you fund the rail system yourself?

Because it’s a public service and I’m not a cunt

You can easily lower your taxes. Stop working and stop buying stuff. Patriots and true Americans love to pay taxes because it means they are successful. I wish I had so much income that my tax bill paid for an entire school. And all those kid made the community bright and lively.

Also why they don’t mind just watching our energy costs skyrocket.

Thanks for offering up everyone else's money instead of your own. Very selfless of you. /s

Soild facts and logic are often completely ignored by the person you are trying to inform. They cannot change their view. Some sort of primitive brain malfunction.

It would be my money as well you donut. That’s how society works. Go to Somalia.

But since you’re so goddamn poor ill cover the .000008 cents you would owe for a rail system.

You’re welcome. Go spend it somewhere nice.

Sununu has come out in support of Commuter Rail and it’s already funded if we don’t jerk around.

Wanna come again with that straw man nonsense?

Trump cut taxes. Dubya Bush cut taxes. Sununu just eliminated the tax on unearned income in NH. Massachusetts cut taxes over the last 30 years, and fell to the mid-20s in the ranking of states by tax burden. Taxes get cut all the time. What are you talking about?

It’s hilarious you think I make only like 80k a year lmao

These would be newer and cleaner and full of middle class workers and professionals. Maybe even extend some stretches of HOV lanes to make it even more attractive. Load it with racks for bikes, e-bikes, scooters, yuppies love that shit. Not to mention the green aspect, you could sell that pretty well too.

Imagine a bus leaving from Manchester (Concord , Nashua) every ten minutes during morning commuting hours and you get access to the quick-moving HOV lane for a smooth 60-75 minute ride to Alewife or West Medford.

> These would be newer and cleaner and full of middle class workers and professionals.

I fit that bill. I still would prefer to drive myself. Maybe I'm just jaded because of my prior experience on buses, or maybe it's just that I hate being in close proximity to other people. Even commuter trains give you SOME room to stretch your legs, stand up and walk around that busses simply don't.

We've been here many times before. Nothing gets built. To me, the whole thing is a scam so that the politicians can hire consultants that are probably connected in some way to their supporters to come up with but another study. The thing has been studied to death and still they do more studies.

That's one of the biggest reasons I support the bill to kill this thing. The state and the two cities are incapable of pulling off a project like this.

Plus there's a housing crunch. Commuter rail might be used to lure people into the area, but there's no place to put them. The only people likely to use it are people that already have a way of getting to work or wherever. Seems rather pointless.

Stop driving on my roads that I paid for out of my pockets then….

Not all narcissists are free staters but all free staters are narcissists

Exactly! Usually when I go to a bruins game I take the orange line in from malden. Which makes it easy to get out of the city but traffic is BRUTAL to get there. A few weeks ago I was going down for a game and ended up sitting in traffic for nearly 2 hours because of an accident.

We don't have enough fucking affordable housing as it is, allowing people to flee here for (what used to be) lower cost of living isn't going to help.

If we can't house the people in the state now, is an infrastructure project that doesn't really benefit us by providing an employment base and taxes to Assachusetts really seem like a fuckin' priority?

There has been exactly like two studies on this thing, and they just kill the last one before it was even complete.

Dont be short sighted and I’m not going to get into the indirect benefits of this rail project because if you can’t see them by now it’s on you.

Go look at the current housing boom in the granite street area of Manchester which is smack dab in the middle of where one of the stops will be. It’s no accident.

These things never get off the ground because of obstructionism in concord.

This last study was a design build study, it was to be the last one before they made the final decision to build and would have had different alternatives.

There are literally so many indirect benefits to rail.

Well, if that's the case, why are we considering spending billions on a rail system when asking 10,000 to move closer to their work places makes more sense?

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Wow, so someone asks you to not take their money by force, for a service they likely won’t use, and you’re resorting to attacking them? Jeez that’s a sick attitude.

Jesus fucking christ, every year the Assholes who moved here from Assachusetts parade this project around. If you're so bitter about your commute (that you knew about when you moved), just move back.

Don't let the door hit yah where the good lord split you.

Is there any actual data on how many people would utilize this service and the expected cost?

I see lots of people with extreme opinions (pro and con) in posts here but I would argue that it would be worthwhile to have a rough idea of what the cost per passenger is. There are other potential public transportation options such as busses that may (or may not) be much cheaper and easier to implement. Or perhaps there are simply not enough people that do a daily commute from Manchester/Boston to support a railway.

All I'm saying is where is the data?

Yes, all the studies are the last ones to be made. That's before the next additional study is launched. You're naïve if you can't see that. Obstructionism is part of our system. You admit things never get off the ground, so it sounds like you agree with me.

Saying there are "indirect benefits" isn't a convincing argument. It will be a money pit, and will only be used by a small number of people that already have a way of commuting.

You're using stops in Manchester as a plural, as in multiple stops? That's even worse. Each additional stop makes it that much longer to get from NH to Boston. Even just the earlier proposals of one station in Manchester, one in Nashua, one stop in Lowell, and then Boston was enough to make a rather long total commute. That further reduces the usability of the service.

I drive all the way from the upper valley, I would love to only have to drive to Manch and just catch a train.

The executive council recently killed funding for the study that would have told us that

Why wont you stay to support us and keep the grandkids nearby?

Sorry pops, unless you are going to sell me your house for 1/2 the market value and move in to a home with the money that will run out in 2 years.... we can't afford it.

Then I would argue that we should perhaps support funding of a study, but not the railway (yet).

How’s your crypto beanie baby portfolio holding up without the backing of the evil State’s monopoly on violence? Your money only has value because the government accepts it as payment for taxes.

>Patriots and true Americans love to pay taxes

Well there's some 100% grade A bullshit.

Least we not forget cars are one of the most deadly forms of transportation per mile traveled. In terms of externalities that's huge.

Nope.

And yet he's still using the same talking point here.

> The rail link will be profitable once we cut the dead weight by banning cars.

Not happening in our lifetimes. The rail service serves a very narrow corridor. It's not going to replace private vehicle use in any significant way. You can add in bus lines to service the stations, but that's making a train trip that's already too long even longer. And it's still a fairly narrow service corridor.

And New Hampshire won't collapse without commuter rail

Do you understand that having affordable transportation to places like Boston would bring the people we want and need that would demand affordable housing in metro areas?

The employment base and taxes aren't here now. What do you propose to bring them here? You know what would do it? Affordable transportation to metro areas.

Set up the commuter rail, let people work in Boston, live in Manchester. Those folks take over all the expensive apartments and condos being built. Those folks go out to eat, shop, entertain, utilize services etc IN NH. Those services need people to work at them. Those people need places to live. Affordable housing is then built for those people. Right now there isn't enough demand OVERALL for the lower priced housing. Sure everyone complains that housing is too expensive. What do they do? They leave. Because not only is there not enough housing, there aren't enough decent jobs available either.

I know no one would openly commit MA tax fraud by hoping the rail to a retail district in NH and skipping out on sales taxes.

But if they did...I'm pretty sure we'd benefit.

>There has been exactly like two studies on this thing, and they just kill the last one before it was even complete.

There have been continuous studies all the way back to the trial run in the 80's.

No, but Manchester will remain the biggest shithole within 75 miles of Boston. All the other shitholes near Boston have gotten a lot better over the last 10 years. Manchester has gotten a lot worse. It’s the only one without commuter rail. That’s not a coincidence.

When they finish east-west rail, it’ll only be a matter of time before Manchester falls behind Springfield and Hartford, too. You’re cutting off your own dick to spite your masshole.

I thought about that, but I also was thinking of the fact that the boston area has far better shopping options. But you're right. If you could take an hour ride on a train on a day off, you could save a bundle on taxes.

It's a nice paradox. People move here because the higher density cities they work in aren't good to live in. But then they want the same services here so that our cities can grow to become the same thing they left because it was unlivable. It's really twisted.

Cars ARE freedom!

Freedom from the driver having to pay for the polution they generate

Freedom from the driver having to pay the full price to maintain the roads

Freedom from having less lethal forms of transportation available Freedom to sit in traffic!

Freedom to be "randomly" stopped searched and ticketed

Cars are all about freedom man!

While I believe you'll be proven wrong, I think this comment is hilarious.

If you have no use for any services that taxes fund, then you really have no need to participate in society at all. On the other hand, if you are using the services but not paying for them, that would be a sense of unfounded entitlement.

Paying taxes gives me security and services. And liked-mind folks who like those things choose to enact and pay for them. The system we use for that is called a government, which we made, specifically for awesome stuff. So we also made up money to facilitate all this. You get to use money. You don't "make" it because it is symbolic.

lmfao WHO WANTS AND NEEDS THEM? People who don't like or care about the way of life here and want to make New Hampshire like whatever congested shithole they're fleeing?

Manchester is it's own Metro area, dipshit. Connecting it to a larger one with more competition isn't going to improve conditions here, it's going to improve them for whoever we take the slack from.

Congratulations, you don't get it. That's what's already happening and yet, we're still not building affordable housing. Rents up the Coast of New Hampshire have sky rocketed the past two years to Boston rates. Manchester is getting there unless you want to live with either cockroaches, drugs or robbery. NO ONE IS BUILDING AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND TAKING AWAY THE HOUSING HERE FOR NEW PEOPLE WON'T MAGIC NEW HOUSING INTO EXISTENCE.

Maybe we should improve transit and housing.

No sane person "loves" paying taxes. It goes to a finding a corrupt system that gets more corrupt the further you get from where you live. By the time it reaches DC, there's very little chance that any of the money you paid goes to anything that benefits you or your community.

MA is much more liberal than NH, and they have the option to pay a higher tax rate if they want to. Hardly anyone ever does. That's how much they love paying taxes.

It's California cancer.

They can no longer afford to live in the state they voted into the ground, they flee to somewhere (usually fiscally conservative) and vote for the same shit that ruined state one. Repeat. I mean fuck, I got an Instagram reel of 3 female roommates laying $6,000 a month for a 3 bedroom house. Imagine paying $2,000 a month to have two fucking roommates still and thinking "yep, I'm of sound mind to make economic decisions for everyone else."

One study found a 4-to-1 return over 10 years: https://www.masstransitmag.com/management/article/21072535/apta-study-public-transit-investment-stimulates-a-4to1-return

So, averaging it out, in 2.5 years.

The source might be biased because it's a public transit advocacy org, but I haven't found any other studies.

Contrarianism

The funny thing is that some of them will inevitably figure it out over time and become the same people they see today as obstructionists. The cycle of life.

I gave you a good reason to pay taxes. You're just blindly giving money to government without participating in the process. If no one worked at all no one would pay taxes and there would be no government at all. You can already go live like that if you want to. Go

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Maybe we should improve housing first ffs.

Making it so residents have basic shelter should be a much fucking higher priority than, idk, making sure Dipshit McGee doesn't have two dwive an hour for work :((((((

You're far more optimistic of them than I am. Lol

>You're just blindly giving money to government without participating in the process.

Make assumptions much?

I was one the fence about that sentence because I assumed you'd make a stink about how voters shape policy just by voting. Blah blah blah. Anyways, you just want to pick apart what I am sayibg without making a point. I DO love to pay taxes so you are the one with inaccurate assumptions

It is not illegal to live off grid

Wait, I’m opposed to this bill, but is your proposition that if we could roll the right kind of people here on a train, we’d get more housing out of it?

You made a sweeping statement that patriots and "true Americans" love paying taxes. That's like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. You might love it, plenty of people don't. There are whole businesses devoted to helping people pay the least amount of taxes possible. Does that make them less patriotic or less of an American? That's a slippery slope. If you're not making six figures, you're practically a terrorist?

Tons of people pay no taxes, Its simple. The baffling thing is that people who don't want to pay taxes, yet want money. Those people are selfish and short-sighted. So those are the people thinking wrong, like you are.

Okay fine if you wanna go back 45 years

No. Not every project is worthy of funding. What kind of argument is that? If someone doesn't see a need for commuter rail, that doesn't make them any less of a "patriot" than someone that does see a need. That's such a disgusting way of debating a topic. Some people want commuter rail, they need to make a compelling argument to convince enough of the voters and their representatives to push the project through. That hasn't happened so far. Expensive projects like this should never get an automatic green light.

That was the plan. Now they wanna enshrine it’s death in stone I guess.

You realize people can use it come into the state right?

It will be a money pit but it will never come close to the pit that I93 was or the FEET expansion will be…

All public transportation are money put by design but they pay for themselves in economic impact.

It goes back further than that, the trial run in the 80s didn't materialize from nothing. That's how long this project has been under discussion, and how long the taxpayers have been paying for studies and for debates and so on. I'd love to see the actual dollar amount that's already been spent without any actual construction being done, or without any concrete plans materializing. That's why this bill is happening, people want to put a cork in this thing before we spend another half century paying for more studies.

Reddit _in_pronoun_voice is pro-facist apparently. Bold position.

>You realize people can use it come into the state right?

Ever use the Lowell line? The trains fill up in the morning heading into Boston. They fill up in the evening heading back from Boston. The trains tend to be sparsely populated outside of that. There's not much reason to think that NH would see anything different.

You might get some traffic to MHT depending on how difficult it is to get from the train to the airport. But what else is going to draw people in?

This is such a waste of money. Completely unnecessary.

But you're in favor of an automatic red light on everything, not much different.

I've watched it play out and added my $0.02 in some of the public feedback over the decades that this has been under discussion. That's pretty far from an automatic red light.

That's why there's a proposal to kill the thing. It's dragged on long enough. We need to either build it, or end it. We're wasting time and money letting this proposal drag on forever.

But connections with Massachusetts will increase demand, which will help with commecting the state

Talk is cheap, the only reason to force people to stop is if you think they'll reach a conclusion that you decided you won't like.

Edit: It is actually an insidious tactic to shut down debate just because you've arbitrarily decided "its gone on too long".

Well let’s go up the line.

First stop is the pheasant lane mall. Tax Free Shopping Second stop is South Nashua. Further tax free shopping. Third stop is over on the Hudson Nashua line that will likely be commuters but the area could be updated with mixed use offerings. 4th stop is airport in Bedford and they have already stated they will have a shuttle on loop to bring you across the river. 5th and 6th stop is down town Manchester where you have the Fisher Cats, SNHU Arena and Palace Theater along with dozens of restaurants bars and specialty shops.

There is also plans for a bed down facility for the trains which means jobs for maintenance along with crew layovers.

Housing will get improved when there is profit to it. Right now there isn't.

Unless you want the government to pay for, regulate and subsidize low income housing?

What is your proposal to fix the problem?

The housing market is profit driven, the companies have found little to no profit in low income and affordable housing. So they stopped providing it and raised rents etc.

Do you propose the Govt mandate, regulate, and subsidize housing to ensure people can get in to affordable housing?

If you don't want that, how should it be done?