Submitted by Movie_Advance_101 t3_10pdj2d in movies
stunkdunkly t1_j6k8rfj wrote
Reply to comment by magus-21 in Avatar: The Way of Water was boring by Movie_Advance_101
Complicated plotting doesn’t preclude something from being shallow.
magus-21 t1_j6kb59a wrote
Good thing the MCU doesn't have complicated plotting. They just follow their own continuity and develop the characters from what came before.
Weird how you don't seem to understand the difference.
stunkdunkly t1_j6kf3v3 wrote
No need to be defensive. To say that a person needs to be paying special attention to the continuity of this very long series of movies or they “won’t get anything out of them” is to say that there is something complicated about the way they tell their stories. It also isn’t an argument against the notion that they’re shallow.
magus-21 t1_j6kg6aw wrote
>To say that a person needs to be paying special attention to the continuity of this very long series of movies or they “won’t get anything out of them” is to say that there is something complicated about the way they tell their stories.
First of all, that is not the same as "complicated plotting."
Second, no I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you can derive enjoyment in different ways. You CAN enjoy them just as simple action movies, or you can enjoy the interconnectedness of the whole series in addition to their appeal as action movies. Hence why I compared it to a TV show rather than a bunch of movies.
stunkdunkly t1_j6kgs9z wrote
Can you give me an example of the sort of thing I’m missing out on if I saw Eternals but didn’t see Black Widow?
magus-21 t1_j6kka5u wrote
Pick a character, and follow how they change through the movies and TV shows.
The most obvious one is Iron Man, since he was the de facto protagonist of the MCU until Endgame. His PTSD from Avengers causes him to create Ultron in Avengers 2. His guilt over creating Ultron compelled him to sign the Sokovia Accords and cause the disbanding of the Avengers, which leaves Earth vulnerable to Thanos. His compulsion to treat consequences as problems to be solved with engineering results in ever greater consequences, until he comes up on one problem whose only solution is self-sacrifice, which calls back to and resolves the arc that started with Captain America's original evaluation of his character in Avengers: "You're not the type to make the sacrifice play."
It remains to be seen whether there will be similar driving forces for the post-Endgame MCU. I'm withholding my judgment on that. But acting as if there aren't any recurring themes or character beats in the MCU is stupid, because it is literally what keeps people coming back to it.
stunkdunkly t1_j6knzfd wrote
Where did I imply that there aren’t recurring themes or character beats? And what have they been doing for the last 4 years if “similar driving forces” haven’t materialized in any meaningful way yet?
magus-21 t1_j6kq62o wrote
>Where did I imply that there aren’t recurring themes or character beats?
I didn't say you implied that. You asked for "an example of the sort of thing I’m missing out on if I saw Eternals but didn't see Black Widow," and I answered with an example of a thing that you would need to follow through multiple movies.
>And what have they been doing for the last 4 years if “similar driving forces” haven’t materialized in any meaningful way yet?
Iron Man came out in 2008. Avengers came out in 2012. "Four years" is not a long time in the context of the MCU.
stunkdunkly t1_j6krgmw wrote
I just asked what they’d been doing. What value do they have before they’re built off of years later? You say they aren’t shallow or meaningless but it sounds like they’re in a holding pattern, maybe indefinitely.
magus-21 t1_j6kt6gu wrote
>What value do they have before they’re built off of years later? You say they aren’t shallow or meaningless but it sounds like they’re in a holding pattern, maybe indefinitely.
Honestly, I share the same concern. They're obviously setting the stage for some kind of multiversal/cosmic conflict, but the multiverse is just a setting, not a story hook, and "setting the stage" means your play hasn't even started yet.
The problem is that the current MCU doesn't have a story hook that teases something revolutionary (like what "the Avengers Initiative" from Iron Man did) or a main villain like Thanos to threaten the newly established status quo. So yeah, it does feel like a holding pattern. But that's also why I said I'm withholding my judgment until they start showing their cards.
Bomber131313 t1_j6kysbc wrote
> like they’re in a holding pattern, maybe indefinitely.
Holding pattern seems like the wrong term, more of an establishing peroid. Like they did pre first Avengers. They are setting up the pieces to fight the next big baddie.
Bomber131313 t1_j6kwc9a wrote
> compelled him to sign the Sokovia Accords and cause the disbanding of the Avengers
Are you putting that on Tony and not Cap?
Tony was taking responsibility for his past mistakes and following the law. As well as throughout the film trying to compromise with Cap to keep the team together. Cap is the one who choose to break the Accords ultimately breaking up the Avengers. Cap made up his mind on what the right thing to do was(a decision that was wrong-Zemo was never going to unleash more Winter Soldiers).
magus-21 t1_j6kxp5i wrote
>Are you putting that on Tony and not Cap?
No statements of fault, just cause and effect. The signing of the Sokovia Accords led to the disbanding of the Avengers, and Tony's decision to sign them was driven by his guilt over creating Ultron. And Tony's decision to create Ultron was driven by his PTSD over the Battle of New York.
I'm just illustrating the kind of character continuity that some commenters here (specifically CrackPlug80) seem to be unable to see.
Bomber131313 t1_j6kziqd wrote
> just cause and effect.
I'm just saying it wasn't his 'cause', that domino was pushed over by Cap.
>The signing of the Sokovia Accords led to the disbanding of the Avengers,
I would say more Cap not signing did that.
>I'm just illustrating the kind of character continuity that some commenters here (specifically CrackPlug80) seem to be unable to see.
Oh, I know and agree with you.
I just don't think you can put the breaking up of the team on Tony.
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