Submitted by TaxSweaty7575 t3_123qivg in movies

Joel Miller and William Munny are very similar characters in what makes them who they are. Both have experienced a tragic loss which distills into a kind of moral permission to be cheered on through morally gray violence. Both have violent pasts that have darkened their souls so deeply that even beyond human norms they may be irreconcilable with any metaphysical sense of forgiveness. Both have third acts that show them either saving the defenseless and delivering as much a sense of justice such a bleak world could expect, or only further sealing their morally condemned fate to satisfy selfish desires for redemption or vengeance, at any cost.

Personally, the muddy morality of the lead characters is IMHO what made Unforgiven one of the best westerns/films of all time and made The Last Of Us such a hit video game/show.

Did Will Munny's violent past that included killing women and children to rob a train make him irredeemable? Did the lives that were impacted and destroyed by the final "lucky" reckoning in the saloon matter less than the lives of his children, or Ned?

Did Joel Miller's talent at killing for his family, for those closest to him make him a "bad" wolf in a world of wolves?

I personally prefer characters that force an internal reflection on why we cheer for them, why we accept or maybe desire a degree of darkness as a necessary part of the narrative metamorphosis to light. Maybe since we know in our gut it never gets as bright as we hope it does, and it can't to be believed when compared to reality.

See Also: HBO's Barry

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enderandrew42 t1_jdwsmcn wrote

During the Bush administration we were having a public debate on torture as a means of interrogation and the public consensus was that this is never acceptable.

Meanwhile the #1 show on TV was 24 where everyone cheered Jack torturing people to get information.

It does raise certain moral quandaries. When the shit hits the fan then maybe you suddenly want those people who we might judge in normal circumstances.

I still fundamentally disagree with what Joel does in the finale but it makes for entertaining fiction and an interesting story to debate.

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Dragonborn83196 t1_jdvt4xi wrote

Barry is a great fucking show, just the right balance of humor but it’s serious when it’s supposed to be. Kind of like Breaking bad

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DrRexMorman t1_jdwbspr wrote

>See Also: HBO's Barry

You might like Patriot, on Amazon.

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charleyismyhero t1_jdwst9t wrote

Antiheroes can be great. But I am so sick of them. I really am. And the whole "everybody is insufferable" trope. It was novel for a short time 20 years ago. Gritty realism felt so fresh and authentic. Now I can't bring myself to bother with most of them.

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TheShadyGuy t1_je1xbg8 wrote

I would just like to thank you for actually understanding the concept of antihero.

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