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DefinitelyNotALeak t1_ja4vwuh wrote

Reply to comment by Typical_Humanoid in The movie “A Nightmare before Christmas” is about cultural appropriation by newtoIT-

I just don't think that 'cultural appropriation' is a useful concept per se. You talk about ownership, and people generally do, but i find that notion absurd. Some cultural ideas and behaviors come from certain people, but there is no ownership there. They have their meaning, and i honestly wish that they can keep it intact if they so desire (that is the biggest problem with the commodification of everything in a global consumerist society, criticism on that angle i can somewhat understand if it becomes too extreme), but the idea that wearing a kimono is disrespectful in itself if one doesn't take the time to 'appreciate' the culture it came from, that's inane to me.
Culture is always fluid and in exchange the moment two different 'cultures' interact in some way or form. People like some aspects, they adopt it, fuse it, do whatever. That's how it always was and it's how it always will be.

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Typical_Humanoid t1_ja4x90p wrote

I do like the idea, but unlike my belief in Death of the Author, I think the culture itself gets the final say. If more people become lax on "outsiders" taking their own meaning that does or doesn't align with their own, that would be pretty wonderful. But it's not the consensus at this time and I understand why.

Thought-provoking reply though.

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DefinitelyNotALeak t1_ja4zkam wrote

I just wonder why people think that tbh, why has the 'culture' (who is that 'culture' to begin with? It's definitely not a monolith) the final say?
They didn't even create it, most people just adopt what their environment teaches them.
The thing is, there are many complexities to this which we probably don't wanna go into now, i can see certain aspects of it (say a dominant 'group' taking something from a less 'dominant' one and potentially monetizing it in ways the minority could not; but that speaks to my commodification angle too), but imo a lot of the talk about CA is a little silly these days too. Idk.
I agree though, it would be wonderful if it was less of an issue, i guess that is our common hope :D

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Typical_Humanoid t1_ja50heo wrote

I think it's all traceable to the borrowers often being treated as having outdone what the originators ever did, because they're "unique" or some similar designation, which just spits in the face of people who have likely been less advantaged than the borrower's culture so it's just kicking people while they're down or who were down historically.

Things like CA would matter much less in a world without prejudice or unfair treatment based on race, religion, etc, but seeing as it does exist, I think it being seen as a no-no makes sense.

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DefinitelyNotALeak t1_ja51tid wrote

Sure, but not every instance is the same. If there is some white girl wanting to wear a kimono because she thinks it is beautiful, where is the harm? I don't really see it.
If there is some white celebrity who thinks they really should wear cornrows for their hip hop music video, then it becomes a little more interesting.
I tend to think in general there needs to be real harm being done, now the problem ofc arises when we think that someone being offended is already enough, which i generally do not agree with (i think it can be a good reason, but mostly when it correlates with other harm).
In any case, i think this is a highly nuanced topic and a lot depends on the specific case imo, which doesn't really seem to be the general opinion on it though, it feels more dogmatic than that and supposes some form of 'ownership' i just cannot agree with.

Sorry for this tangent, it was just one small part of your comment haha.

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Typical_Humanoid t1_ja534ba wrote

I appreciate that first bit because I very much fall into that camp lol, but I never would because I don't want to step on any toes. Even if I don't think anyone's saying I can't, I just would fold in on myself nevertheless if it hurt someone in ways people borrowing something from my culture would never hurt me.

I think making it black and white is just easier because making exceptions for this and that means deciding what is or isn't okay will take over people's lives more than it already does when it's already pretty black and white as it is. Like the cornrows example may be more egregious because the tensions that exist across those communities are more extant than anything between white girls and Japanese girls lol (We've buried the hatchet since WWII I think it's safe to say), but isn't it just easier to say, just avoid as much as you possibly can? I think most feel it is on both sides, even if one side remains in longing to still adopt neat parts of other cultures secretly.

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DefinitelyNotALeak t1_ja54vrq wrote

That wasn't on purpose :D I mean, i think having personal doubt there is totally fine, though imo it speaks to the current climate mostly, i am just wondering if it should be like it is i guess.

Black and white is always easier, but i am not a fan of binary thinking or dogmatism, i think nuance is ultimately a lot more healthy. Power differences, unequality, all the things we'd ideally would not like to have in our world are important to keep in mind, but i also think we overcorrect a little much here and there at times, and for something like cultural ideas i find that to be the case too. The difference between appropriation and appreciation (these are the two ideas broadly speaking right) can be rather slim, and as i said before, i think fundamentally we exchange culture all the time anyway, gatekeeping it too much seems just not that useful to me.
There are exceptions and reasons to do so at times, but as i said, i think this has to be linked to harm (for example if people's 'appropriation' leads to clichés which harm the initial group).
I appreciate the conversation though, thanks for the little exchange here haha. (gonna have to emphasize once more, i agree with your death of the author idea for sure).

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Typical_Humanoid t1_ja57uj6 wrote

I enjoyed it too and being an idealist I responded well to your ideas, I just don't want to force how I agree things should be with what people perceive is the fairer course. I notice something like overcorrection in society constantly though....I may be a self-proclaimed feminist but this has people thinking I have opinions I don't have about how we should repair ties with each other.

Take care. :D

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