Submitted by Sinman1982 t3_yd9r8s in massachusetts
Sinman1982 OP t1_itrdc47 wrote
Reply to comment by Hilarias_Glucose_Cup in There is no compromise with election deniers. And that’s the problem. by Sinman1982
You are entitled to your opinions, not your own set of facts. GOP election deniers don't have any proof, just the orange savior repeating the lies.
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_itre4bj wrote
My point is not that you are wrong, I agree there are a lot of loons running around about the election of 2020. My point is that it doesn’t matter, won’t move the needle to help progressives and will likely just galvanize the people you don’t like. Focus on a positive message that brings people to your side instead of creating binary traps that force people into feeling like you are trying to be morally superior.
bostonbananarama t1_itrhwxc wrote
> Poll: 61% of Republicans still believe Biden didn’t win fair and square in 2020
You can't possibly be foolish enough to think that 61% of Republicans believing the election was stolen isn't an issue. Can you?
What do you think happens when you erode confidence in elections? People resort to political violence or other illegal tactics. Government loses legitimacy as well. Election denial is catastrophic.
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_itubl7b wrote
It is an issue but the take away of polls like that should not be to use it as some false binary idea that anyone who questions election integrity is a conspiracy theorist. The reason you have polls like that is many citizens don't trust the election process. With the growth of mail in voting, the labeling of common sense voter ID laws as somehow bad and the overplayed hysteria over state election laws like Georgia you have had a lot of change and turmoil over the election process. There are always winner effects with elections - Dems used "Russian Hackers" in 2016 as their version of the republicans "Stolen Election" of 2020 and i am sure the will be other trends. The key takeaway to this by both parties should be - lets work to make sure we address what we can around the integrity of our elections. Instead, we do what most people in Reddit world and Twitter world like to do - use it as a chance to create a false binary.
bostonbananarama t1_itue4v5 wrote
> With the growth of mail in voting
Vote by mail is safe and accurate. Oregon since 2000, and Washington since 2011 have been broadly vote by mail without issue. Absentee ballots are used everywhere. Questioning voting by mail is a political stunt by the right.
> the labeling of common sense voter ID laws as somehow bad
Voter ID laws were enacted to solve a problem that didn't exist. In-person voter fraud is incredibly rare. Proponents of voter ID laws have said that they are designed to disenfranchise. Stopping lawful voters from voting is bad, it's a poll tax with extra steps.
> and the overplayed hysteria over state election laws like Georgia you have had a lot of change and turmoil over the election process.
Yes there is a concern when voter laws are changed to be easier to rig in the future. When those who supported a failed coup change the laws to make it easier next time, that's concerning
> There are always winner effects with elections - Dems used "Russian Hackers" in 2016 as their version of the republicans "Stolen Election" of 2020 and i am sure the will be other trends.
No they absolutely did not. No one said the vote was rigged. It was alleged, and fairly conclusively proven that Russian agents created a web of disinformation to influence the election. It was not asserted that the vote was fraudulent, nor that Trump wasn't the rightful president in any meaningful way.
The majority of the Republican party is of the opinion that the election was illegitimate and that vote totals were changed. No evidence of this has ever been substantiated. Over 60 lawsuits were filed and dismissed.
> The key takeaway to this by both parties this should be - lets work to make sure we address what we can around the integrity of our elections.
Both parties? One party should stop being insurrection planning fascists. If Republicans didn't gerrymander and disenfranchise they'd never hold the executive branch again, nor a majority in Congress. They no longer have a platform because their ideas are wildly out of touch with the majority of Americans.
Please stop with your dishonest framing and false equivalency. If you think both sides are to blame you simply aren't paying attention.
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_ituq1pz wrote
It is not really a matter of which side is to blame or who is right or wrong. If you feel like you hold some kind of moral righteousness over people due to the points above then fine, you are a truly good person and the people who disagree with you are really bad. Enjoy your reddit victory.
All I seek to point out is that maybe, framing it as moral superiority when you don't like the behavior and then dismissing the behavior when the "right side" engages in it might actually be part of the reason why these populist movements sometimes gain momentum. \
bostonbananarama t1_itvqh41 wrote
> It is not really a matter of which side is to blame or who is right or wrong.
One side has advanced clearly fabricated claims and then attempted a coup. It truly is a matter of one side being wrong.
> If you feel like you hold some kind of moral righteousness over people due to the points above then fine, you are a truly good person and the people who disagree with you are really bad. Enjoy your reddit victory.
Never said anything like this, you're just deflecting at this point.
> All I seek to point out is that maybe, framing it as moral superiority
Haven't done this.
> when you don't like the behavior and then dismissing the behavior when the "right side" engages in it might actually be part of the reason why these populist movements sometimes gain momentum. \
WTF are you going on about? Behavior I don't like? They're not wearing white after Labor Day or putting pineapple on a pizza, they're trying to violently overthrow the government and install a Christian Authoritarian government. I'd say you're an idiot but you know precisely what you're doing and it's disgusting.
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_itvs88n wrote
ok, sorry, didn't know i was dealing with a progressive QANON type. moving along.
techiemikey t1_itzgixz wrote
No offense...but what part do you believe was QANON-esque there?
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_itzu0kl wrote
Generally, anytime I am dealing with people from either side of the political aisle, I judge their commentary based on their level rigidity and their impression of the scale of the problem. I'm basically trying to determine whether they come at problems from the perspective of Religion/Moral Righteousness or Pragmatism.
In this case, I readily admit there is a population of people who can be bucketed as election deniers but the scale and impact these people have is such that they are best categorized as a small level concern. The poster above is elevating their scale to such that they are a large enough threat to equate to overthrowing the government and installing an authoritarian government. No serious person thinks this is reasonable, the same way that its not reasonable to think the Biden admin is going to force us into a communist government. When you realize you are dealing with people that give too much weight to nonsense ideas, it is just time to cut your losses. They exist on the extreme edges of conservative and progressive viewpoints and when you dig into their mindsets, they really are not very different.
techiemikey t1_iu00hcc wrote
> No serious person thinks this is reasonable
Can you clarify what you mean by "no serious person thinks this is reasonable?" Because if "by serious" you mean "people who should be taken seriously" I agree. But people who are in position to win their election believe this, and unfortunately that means we have to take that risk seriously. As a currently example Kari Lake is running for Governor of Arizona, "I will win and I'll accept that result" to the question of "If you lose, will you accept the result", and she currently leads by 11 points in polling. Also, if she wins, she will be involved int he election certification process in 2024. Why should we not take this person seriously?
>The poster above is elevating their scale to such that they are a large enough threat to equate to overthrowing the government and installing an authoritarian government.
Two things: first, you realize that was attempted, right? The over throwing of the government?
Also, are you aware that there are members of congress saying things like “We need to be the party of nationalism and I’m a Christian, and I say it proudly, we should be Christian Nationalists.”?
Hilarias_Glucose_Cup t1_iu0chu3 wrote
I was referencing the fact that the chance of an authoritarian government in the US is very slim, to the point that it is not worth worrying about regardless of whether a small handful of loons get elected. We have them on both sides of the House right now and they generally don't have any real power aside from being useful idiots to the media.
Regarding the attempted overthrow - you are right, there was an attempt. Learn a lesson from it - keep giving these movements oxygen by pushing an us against them ideology, binary thought on every issue, and picking away at the trust of our institutions and we will have to deal with some of the stuff you are concerned about. Instead of continuing to stoke divide, start being more pragmatic, look to strengthen trust in institutions and things will get better.
techiemikey t1_iu0h3ar wrote
I'm just going to say this then bow out: I feel you and I see actions and differ in "how many people actually believe it." About 70% of republicans don't think that Joe Biden is the legitimate winner of the 2020 election. I think this is not a "small handful of loons" but "a large amount of support".
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