9Z7EErh9Et0y0Yjt98A4 t1_jd754kl wrote
Reply to comment by hatred_outlives in They’ve Been Warned: Attorney General Says Suburbs ‘Must Comply’ With Transit-Oriented Housing Law by psychothumbs
I love the vagueness of this post too. Anyone with a backyard could pretty easily have a chicken coop.
Proof that this is a rural town simply incapable of supporting a couple apartment complexes is that they have a few chickens and they live next to a farm. Sure, this could be the far flung frontiers settled sparsely by rugged, independent frontier-farmers, or just some suburb that allows backyard chicken coops. There are towns within the 495 belt that allow chickens for Christ's sake, this is a meaningless claim about rural living.
If this area is as rural and farm focused as claimed I very much doubt there's any real market interest in intense housing development. Somehow I doubt this is quite the pastoral community as being described.
The septic excuse is a time honored nimby cop-out. Refuse to build sewer systems then cite the inherent limitations of septic systems to impede further development.
tjrileywisc t1_jd77tbw wrote
I've heard of people in Somerville raising chickens at home!
PLS-Surveyor-US t1_jd7ia0t wrote
so you want to pay for building 100 new WWTPs and school additions in all these communities to "fix" the problem? It's not nimbyism that is fighting against this...its reality. A wastewater treatment plant costs millions. For a few hundred units this adds tens of thousands to the cost of each unit. Whereas Deer Island has plenty of capacity to add these same units at no additional cost. Same with the school problem. Most of the fix is in the urban core where the infrastructure already exists to handle it. An alternative is to pick one town to become a city and grow it...not little mini villas all over the state.
9Z7EErh9Et0y0Yjt98A4 t1_jd7l9ac wrote
I'm not one of these people who thinks NIMBYs are solely motivated by racist motives like "neighborhood character", they often have very strong, material interest reasons to oppose further development. Investing in infrastructure improvements is expensive and inconvenient, no doubt about it.
That's the thing though, everyone recognizes the need for additional housing and other associated infrastructure, but nobody wants to deal with it.
There's a growing recognition that the need is simply too great to allow this game of every town saying "not us though" anymore and to just ram this shit down everyone's throat at the state level. That's a good thing, tough shit about how much of a pain it's going to be for you (and honestly everyone).
The population is growing, infrastructure improvements are desperately needed and it's good for the state to make towns do this whether they want it or not. You're always free to move away if rural living is that important to you, but creating de-facto zero-growth, gated communities is not in the public interest.
PLS-Surveyor-US t1_jd84k99 wrote
For what it's worth, I have never advocated creating zero growth communities. This state brags about how smart it is but on this issue, how smart is it to build out farm land in Holden when you have much better options near actual MBTA stations? The roads are overloaded. Putting more apartments farther from the jobs is a bad strategy. Building hundreds of new wastewater treatment plants out side the MWRA system is also a costly mistake in my opinion. I recognize something is needed to be done, I work on housing projects all over eastern mass.
Two elements fix the supply bottleneck. 1) Zoning reform. Approve any building permit request that matches the zoning of any lot within 100' of the subject parcel. This would cut permitting times into a fraction of the time now. 1 year becomes 30 days. This would include dimensional and use reform (multi vs single fam). 2) Any site within 1/2 mile of an MBTA rapid transit or commuter rail station could build with the same density of any other building near an MBTA station (this would ramp up the TOD successes that have helped increase supply.
Anything else should be incentivized through the tax code to increase supply and not beat down people's throats. Carrot is better than the stick.
three-ple t1_jd9heiv wrote
> 2) Any site within 1/2 mile of an MBTA rapid transit or commuter railstation could build with the same density of any other building near anMBTA station
Do I understand then, you agree with the direct MBTA-adjacent-community portion of this law, just not the neighboring community portion? Your statement is very similar to the meat of this law, with the only caveat of "same density of any other building", which could vary greatly from station to station.
PLS-Surveyor-US t1_jdaigzp wrote
That is not what is in the news. The town of Holden is being threatened by the AG and it is miles from an MBTA station. I definitely agree (and have posted a few times in this thread) that we should build very densely near existing MBTA stations. The original TOD law did a good job at this and should be continued. I don't allowing a Prudential Tower at each station should be the result but something large enough and dense to both help plus allow direct access to the MBTA system.
three-ple t1_jdalkp4 wrote
Sure. But just to be clear then, you disagree with what the AG is doing because of the adjacent communities part of the law, but agree with all other parts of the law?
Holden isn't included because of some mistake. They qualify under what was put in the law itself.
AG is being heavy handed because there is a large risk a bunch of communities try to defect and ignore the law.
PLS-Surveyor-US t1_jddr4xh wrote
I disagree with law affecting other towns and not simply land within a short walk of a T Station. The AG may simply be doing her job. I have a problem with the law itself extending too far beyond the practical side of how best to create denser housing that has great options of mass transit. Forcing holden to build hundreds or thousands of units puts those people on the highways and not the MBTA.
three-ple t1_jddyiw6 wrote
:shrug: I mean I disagree with aspects of plenty of laws. Many still have a positive impact.
But your characterization is wrong. Holden doesn't have to "build hundreds of thousands of units". It has to *zone* 50 acres to allow up to 750 units to be built [1]. That is it.
The city doesn't have to build a damn thing. Private enterprise will do that.
Holden surface area is 23,000 acres. 0.2% of it will need to be designated as higher density. There is so much hand wringing going on over ultimately a minor change to zoning in the area.
Every other discussion point here is completely speculative. If Holden is such a terrible place to build, nobody will build the density. If Holden has problems with water/sewer, that will have to be figured out, but there won't be some magical fairy that comes in and forces them at gunpoint to build a new wastewater treatment plant overnight. If some other thing happens to Holden as part of this, I suspect they will have the intelligence and wherewithal to deal with it.
Let's. Move. Forward. Create the zoning. Work through the next steps.
​
PLS-Surveyor-US t1_jdek8vh wrote
I said hundreds OR thousands. A small hyperbole as I wasn't aware of the 750...
How do you pay for the wastewater treatment for this project? You have two options: a large septic system (note that this uses a lot of land area) or a plant. Millions to build a plant. Divided over the 750 units will probably make the units cost prohibitive. Your ideas on "figure it out" ignore reality.
Most zoning should be local driven not state. It is better that way. We can certainly agree to disagree and I don't expect any change in peoples views on this but most people prefer local to state or national control for a reason.
alexandercecil t1_jd8t0sr wrote
Instead of being aggressive, why don't we just talk so I can answer your questions? My comment was already long. How many details do you want me to write for a discussion on Reddit when I do not even know if anyone will read my comment?
I have what others call a large flock of chickens for a typical family that, "has chickens," even in my community. I am a registered chicken farm with MDAR and can legally transport and sell my birds across the state. If we want to get technical, I let that certification lapse while I was fighting cancer this past year, but we will be renewing our registration this year. We are not a four-hen operation that makes some of the eggs my family eats. We are not a commercial enterprise in any meaningful sense, but what we do is real agriculture. I am not all that unique for my community.
The farm I live next to is maybe a hundred acres with more locations across the town. They sell food not only locally, but also in several more metropolitan municipalities. There are other farms similar to this in town for both animal products and produce.
Sewer is only economical on a certain scale and density. That is why the more densely developed parts of my town that are adjacent to more urban neighboring municipalities can support sewer lines. We do not have enough sewer use to afford our own treatment plant. Our sewer commission leases capacity from our neighbors. My understanding is that they are unable or unwilling to lease us more.
I am not against increasing housing in the state. My town needs to be a part of that solution. I am against this specific law that seems to view the housing challenge in every town as a nail because they happen to have already built a legislative hammer.
We could also get into unfunded mandates and how Boston rakes in taxes from businesses while leaving us to build revenue-negative housing to support their municipal economy. Development can be thoughtful. I get into some of my ideas in another reply to my original comment. If you want to discuss, I am open to listening and responding.
9Z7EErh9Et0y0Yjt98A4 t1_jd8tev5 wrote
What town are you referring to and what kind of rezoning in your town is getting proposed that is simply too burdensome? Please be specific, the details matter a lot.
alexandercecil t1_jd93l1w wrote
I apologize, but I really do not want to get into the exact town I live in. I do not mean to be rude or stifle discussion, but I am a volunteer elected official in my town. Many people in this post seem to have a lot of vitriol on this topic. I am not comfortable doxxing myself at that level. I have shared more than I normally might in this circumstance because I feel that the discussion is important for all of us to be having.
I can get into the rezoning in a general sense, though. A major part of this legislation that gets glossed over is that the town cannot simply create a zone that is not feasible to be developed as intended. What does this mean? This is a good question, and my limited understanding is the lawyers from several municipalities are trying to figure that out.
In terms of water and sewer alone, my town cannot support this level of development. We literally cannot just choose to spend money and increase our capacity. The public water and sewer services in my town are separate entities from the town government. This is more common than people might realize in Massachusetts, though it is not the way the majority of municipalities are structured. Even if our sewer commission was willing to increase services, which they might be willing to do, they lease capacity from one or more adjacent municipalities since we do not have the density and demand to support a treatment plant. These municipalities are not looking to lease us more of their limited supply. Could this legislation force us to build a sewer processing plant for several million dollars that can only be used by a comparatively small number of people? It may. Again, the full repercussions are not yet known because the legislation is not as clear as it might seem.
In addition, the increased housing as specified by this legislation could cause a double-digit percentage increase to our town's population. Our school, fire, and police services are at capacity. Our budget is tight enough that our debt needs are planned out and maxed for many years in future. We cannot add capacity without new infrastructure.
Again, I am sorry that I cannot just come out and get into the exact name and previous details of my town. My desire to have my town email account flooded or my wife and kids harassed is pretty huge. I am not a politician and public figure in the way we think of them. I am a guy who was elected into his town government because he is one of the few willing to do the volunteer work to keep his town running. I have boundaries. I would share more if I could.
9Z7EErh9Et0y0Yjt98A4 t1_jd96u7y wrote
>I apologize, but I really do not want to get into the exact town I live in. I do not mean to be rude or stifle discussion, but I am a volunteer elected official in my town. Many people in this post seem to have a lot of vitriol on this topic. I am not comfortable doxxing myself at that level. I have shared more than I normally might in this circumstance because I feel that the discussion is important for all of us to be having.
Fair enough. Please understand I mean this in a sincerely polite way, but NIMBYs have been caught exaggerating, if not straight up lying about, such concerns so many, many times in past campaigns to stifle much needed development and it's really hard for me to extend much generosity when it comes to such claims. Maybe it's true in your town's case that further development would propose near insurmountable challenges that should merit special exemption, but you'll forgive me if I have my doubts.
>In terms of water and sewer alone, my town cannot support this level of development. We literally cannot just choose to spend money and increase our capacity. The public water and sewer services in my town are separate entities from the town government. This is more common than people might realize in Massachusetts, though it is not the way the majority of municipalities are structured. Even if our sewer commission was willing to increase services, which they might be willing to do, they lease capacity from one or more adjacent municipalities since we do not have the density and demand to support a treatment plant. These municipalities are not looking to lease us more of their limited supply. Could this legislation force us to build a sewer processing plant for several million dollars that can only be used by a comparatively small number of people? It may. Again, the full repercussions are not yet known because the legislation is not as clear as it might seem.
Seems like a legit concern. The state legislation should be persuaded to make sure to hit these utility providers with their big anti-Nimby stick too to make sure they do their part to accommodate expansion. I'm sure the Big Bad state has enough energy to slap around any utility providers that cause problems. This seems like a far more fruitful avenue than trying to lobby to prevent all development, because the insane housing shortage is going to make such positions increasingly untenable. I imagine it's easier to influence such policies if a town has earned a reputation of dealing with this dire matter in good faith rather than those that reflexively oppose any development. Now is a great time to get on the winning team and secure some influence to steer policy.
>In addition, the increased housing as specified by this legislation could cause a double-digit percentage increase to our town's population. Our school, fire, and police services are at capacity. Our budget is tight enough that our debt needs are planned out and maxed for many years in future. We cannot add capacity without new infrastructure.
sounds like your town needs to reassess their budget, perhaps including taxes. A growing town means growing expenses, but also growing amenities that justify a tax hike. People who want to live in dirt cheap, rural areas always have the option to move to more remote, out of demand areas. Populations grow, the remote community of yesteryear become outer neighborhoods of a growing nearby metro. Such is life, nothing is forever.
alexandercecil t1_jd9e1tq wrote
I get your skepticism.
Look, I hate development. It bothers me to my core. But you know what? I don't get a choice in the matter! People need places to live. Property owners can do things like build more houses by right. My town has doubled in population in the past 20 or so years. It does not matter if I want the way things were - they are going to change.
My job in town government is to help facilitate that change being a positive one for my community. So in the end I am not anti-development. What I want is development that will improve my town in the process, or at least make it no worse.
A town's character is important. There is a problem that talking about character is often a dog whistle for all sorts of crap. That is not what I mean - I want my town to develop in a way that we can attract a more economically and racially diverse population than we currently have. A town's character is closely tied to things like its collective identity. Towns that lose their collective sense of who they are also lose things like democratic involvement. Also, many people feel it is nice to live somewhere a little unique and special.
I get into more details in other comments I made in this section, but there are strategies municipalities can employ to foster development that is more dense, preserves rural atmosphere, and actually increases the feeling of belonging within the community. It can even be done in ways that are more appealing to developers, rather than less. What the state requires in this legislation does none of that aside from attracting developers.
Changes to things like our water and sewer providers are not easy, politically difficult at best, and possibly an even greater legal challenge. I am not sure it matters, because there are other ways of fostering development than doing what more populous suburbs do.
My town is growing, but the key is that the rate of growth that could be created by this legislation is too much too quickly for my town to absorb. We plan on fairly rapid growth. We cannot effectively plan to add 10% or more to our town population overnight. It is not as simple as needing to raise taxes, because MA places severe limits on how much local taxes can increase. The key here is going to be thoughtful residential development policies balanced with improving commercial and industrial growth.
The way I am frustrated by all of this is that surrounding small towns are being required to take the hit for Boston and nearby cities not developing enough housing to accommodate their business growth. They get the tax boon and leave us with increased demands and costs. They want us to develop the arable land we use to grow the food they eat. To me that is robbing Peter to pay Paul. We need to do our part to meet housing needs, but it feels more than a bit unfair that we are also being asked to pick up the slack for those that have profited from business growth without matching residential growth. If that feeling makes me a NIMBY, then I am no worse than the ones who put us all in this predicament. I know this paragraph is a bit of a diatribe, but unfunded mandates bring that out in many municipal officials.
But yeah, growth is unavoidable. We need to make sure it happens in ways that support communities rather than break them. From what I have seen, this legislation does the latter in many places.
three-ple t1_jd9ibb0 wrote
>I imagine it's easier to influence such policies if a town has earned a reputation of dealing with this dire matter in good faith rather than those that reflexively oppose any development. Now is a great time to get on the winning team and secure some influence to steer policy.
This is a damn good point.
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