Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

rockrnger t1_j39a84x wrote

Russian civil war is so crazy it sounds made up.

Dozens of countries involved and Czechoslovakia controlling half of russia with the noted handicap of not existing.

176

Kered13 t1_j3adm39 wrote

Also making Czechoslovakia the only nation to be undefeated in naval combat!

56

ironroad18 t1_j3akheh wrote

Yeah, the international expeditions into Russia, really shed light onto the Lenin's and later Stalin's hyper paranoia towards the West and Japan. In addition to the ever present worry of an internal party coup or another popular uprising.

After WW2, it seems like Soviet Russians were obsessed with creating a physical buffer between them and the West at all costs due to what happened during the civil war. Even if it meant using the spent remnants of the Red Army to subjugate Eastern Europe by force.

46

Discount_gentleman t1_j3cf5tp wrote

Yep. Americans always seem shocked when other countries turn out to have their own histories that differ from "good" (pro-American) or "bad" (anti-American) explanations.

10

ggaggamba t1_j3belek wrote

Didn't the USSR have the buffer of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland prior to the start of WWII? All these countries were declaring neutrality and bending over backwards to avoid offending both Berlin and Moscow, which were both trying to sway the neutral states one way or another. Kind of weird the Kremlin would conspire to eliminate the buffer to sit beside arch enemy Nazi Germany.

Also kind of weird the USSR would abandon the Franco-Soviet Mutual Defence Pact ratified in early '36 - a pact that freaked out Hitler - in favour of teaming up with the arch enemy.

Kind of weird to conspire with the German military (that had only just finished invading Russia) to provide it the secret bases to develop the technologies and tactics of combined-arms manoeuvre warfare in violation of Versailles.

Kind of weird for Lenin to orchestrate the 'Social Fascist' argument and propaganda attack on Social Democrat Parties in Germany and elsewhere. The SPD was more hated by the KPD than the NSDAP. The KPD considered the Nazi rise to power a mere temporary event, one to pave the way for the communists' assumption of the reins of the state. They were right; just had to have a second world war to accomplish it. What's a few million deaths to accomplish an objective?

And weird for Stalin's Comintern and the USSR to accuse Britain and France of starting WWII after Germany invaded Poland.

On 7 September 1939, Stalin spoke to Comintern leader Georgi Dimitrov, a member of his inner circle, who was dealing with the disbelief and upset of many European communists about the Soviet-German Non-aggression Pact. (Why communists were in 'disbelief' seems peculiar to me. Stalin had signed the Italo-Soviet Friendship, Neutrality, and Nonaggression Pact in 1933 with Mussolini, the first fascist. Until '41 fascism was a minor concern. Enemy #1 was the Social Democrats.) 'A war is on between two groups of capitalist countries. Hitler, without understanding it or desiring it, is shaking and undermining the capitalist system. We can manoeuvre and pit one side against the other to set them fighting with each other as fiercely as possible,' said Stalin. This conflict offered expansion: 'What would be the harm if, as a result of the rout of Poland, we were to extend the socialist system onto new territory and populations?' Sergo Beria, Lavrentiy Beria's son, remembered this as the time of the Soviet leaders talking about how they pitted Germany against France and Britain and that this aligned with Lenin's goal of a second world war. The first birthed the USSR; the second would birth worldwide revolution. In July 1940, Stalin reiterated the aforementioned ideas in a conversation with the British ambassador to Moscow Stafford Cripps. The Soviet leader said that before the outbreak of WWII no Soviet-British rapprochement was possible as his country focused on the demolition of the 'old' balance of powers built after WWI without the USSR, whilst Great Britain fought for its retention. 'The Soviet Union wanted to change the old equilibrium, while England and France wished to preserve it. Also, Germany wanted to make a change in the equilibrium and this common desire [with the USSR] to do away with the old equilibrium became the basis for the rapprochement with the Germans.'

>the spent remnants of the Red Army to subjugate Eastern Europe by force.

The Red Army had about 11.3 million personnel serving in '45. That's quite a 'remnant'.

In the end, the 'shed light on' apologia isn't very illuminating. The imperialism of USSR-based International Socialism was its feature. War and mass death was a price they were willing (for others) to pay.

5

screwnazeem t1_j3bv3wx wrote

The USSR didn't exist till 1922, which was after the end of the Russian civil war, which is what this is talking about.

13

Discount_gentleman t1_j3cfh3n wrote

Guy reads a story about US and European invasions of Russia as part of an intervention in the Russian Civil War and concludes: Isn't it weird that Russians were skeptical of placing all their trust in European security guarantees?

7

PrusPrusic t1_j3b93xc wrote

"The spent remnants" were the single most powerful army in the world.

3

Skeptical-_- t1_j3dspj6 wrote

"Taking into account the awful performance of the Western Allies against the Nazis on the western front it is entirely justified to consider the Soviet Army superior in the immediate post-war period to any other army in the world.Conflating the Soviet Army in 1945 with the Russians in 2022 is so stupid that I will, sadly, have to assume that you are terminally American." - PrusPrusic reply which seems gone now... I replied but also don't see that so here it is

wow you really don't know some basic ww2 stats if that's your argument. The Soviets killed a lot of Germans but for everyone killed they lost a (2-4 maybe more) of their own. They were also on the defensive taking the majority of these losses….Yes soviets/russia killed a lot of germans no is saying they did not but it was anything but performant and left them drained with major negative effects on the population still seen to this day. To claim they were somehow the best/strongest in the world right after taking such losses is crazy and ignores basic realities inside and outside of the USSR.

0

PrusPrusic t1_j3duxab wrote

So basically you're trying to tell me that an army's greatness is measured in K/D ratio? That's so silly that I don't really feel the need to continue this discussion. The Red Army could've rolled into Lisabon in the autumn of '45.

2

Skeptical-_- t1_j3e70z7 wrote

>So basically you're trying to tell me that an army's greatness is measured in K/D ratio?

Not at all.

You're the one who brought up performance. Which I called out as that’s an odd approach considering the well known performance issues of the soviets. So it pointed to extreme bias and or misinformation.

My original comment also included “By war's end the Soviet armed forces numbered 11,365,000 officers and men” - "In 1945 as the defeat of Germany and Japan neared, U.S. military personnel numbered 12,209,238”. That’s just pure numbers of people when you factor in equipment/training/allies the difference is stark.

"The Red Army could've rolled into Lisabon in the autumn of '45." 👀

1

pablonieve t1_j3a85cm wrote

The Czechs just wanted to get out of Russia so they could help with the independence movement back home. But the Communists kept making their passage more difficult because they were so distrustful of them (per usual).

34