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AuntieDawnsKitchen t1_j19hxe1 wrote

Reply to comment by Welshhoppo in How did the Romans manage to arm most of their soldiers with swords? by Horror_in_Vacuum

And weren’t a lot of them equipped with spears, which take much less metal?

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Trevor_Culley t1_j19zvzk wrote

Not at the height of the Empire. They had two javelins for throwing and the gladius. The late-Republic/early-Empire legions were a weird ancient army in that way. They set aside about 2000 years of pike warfare supremacy for more maneuverable short swords. By the later Empire, they had incorporated more pike-based auxiliaries and shifted back to longer swords and pikes as cavalry became a bigger component on all sides of their battlefields.

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terrendos t1_j1ans90 wrote

2000 years of pikes? I assume you mean 200 years. Alexander the Great died in 323 BC, Marian reforms were 107 BC. Pikes weren't really a thing before Phillip II of Macedon.

Unless you're intending to argue that the First Intermediate Period Egyptians were using them, which would be a surprise to me.

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ThoDanII t1_j1bftoj wrote

one pilum

Javelins were used by the velites the skirnishers

show me please the roman unit which used pikes

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Welshhoppo t1_j1cefbc wrote

No it was two Pila, one was lighter and the other was heavier. So they threw the lighter one first, then followed up with the heavier one at close range.

As for the pike question. Well maybe. There are references to Roman Army units called Phalangarii and Lanciarii, which may have used longer spears. But the evidence for them is sketchy at best. Cassius Dio flat out says that the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antonius (Caracalla) had a 15,000 man Macedonian Phalanx in imitation of Alexander the Great. But take it with a pitch of salt. Although there is the possibility it was true, considering how useful a long spear would be against Persian horsemen.

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ThoDanII t1_j1clk9q wrote

>No it was two Pila, one was lighter and the other was heavier.

But AFAIK history marched on and discarded that the legionary used 2 Pila in battle

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Welshhoppo t1_j1cmar6 wrote

The Romans always used some form of missile weapons in the legions. Pila were used until at least the 3rd century as we see them on graves and other pieces of art work. Then in the late empire they seem to have used javelins similar to the German Angron or small weapons like the plumbata which was like a very large dart of which the legionnaires carried 5 of strapped to their shields.

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Intranetusa t1_j1kaqlu wrote

I've read it was both. Some sources say they often carried two pila, but in some contexts and some time periods, they carried only 1 pila.

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Welshhoppo t1_j19i7t9 wrote

The Romans? At least two javelins with a long metal tip. But when you compare it to the amount of armour that your Roman legionnaire wore. It's not a lot.

Plus you could pick them up after the battle and get someone to reforge them back into shape.

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Devil-sAdvocate t1_j1is0wg wrote

> Plus you could pick them up after the battle and get someone to reforge them back into shape.

Swords from dead or retired soldiers could be reused as well, meaning they didn't need to make a new sword for every new soldier that ever joined.

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AnaphoricReference t1_j1po9k0 wrote

The pilum takes less metal but cannot effectively be used for thrusting. A blade for a thrusting spear takes a similar amount. The short sword is a kind of very short thrusting spear. Compare the Zulu Iklwa: spear or shortsword with a long hilt?

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