Submitted by raori921 t3_zltns8 in history

I can think of a few countries that have had to deal with this question in various ways, on an individual or society/national level, but I'm curious to see what the general reaction is in such countries.

One is the relatively well known case of JRR Tolkien talking of his reasons for creating Lord of the Rings and the Middle Earth world, or at least about his fantasy writing generally. He said in one letter,

>Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

(From Tolkien's Letter #131, in an answer here)

It doesn't mean he always believed this in the same way his whole life, it could've changed, but Tolkien thought (at least here) that England was missing something like the grand or at least well remembered great epic traditions that other European countries/cultures had. It's one Englishman's response to feeling native England had no great, pre-Christian mythical tradition.

Another case is the Philippines, where many people believe that a lot of pre-Hispanic/precolonial native cultures, including myths, arts, epic poetry etc. have been lost mainly because of colonialism, 300 years and more of Spanish rule and Catholic conversion, and 50 and more of American rule, plus a lot of disasters and things like the WW2 Japanese occupation and American battles with them in Manila that burned or destroyed a lot of the historical records. As a result there are Filipino responses on the individual/community level (like groups trying to really promote every little thing about precolonial history, or even writing stories in those settings, sometimes passing these off as actual records but which are hoaxes), and on the national/government level (eg. the Order of Kalantiaw, an award/title based on stories of a precolonial Filipino chief which however are the work of a early 1900s myth-writer).

I am interested to know how the process goes of inventing ancient myth in countries that feel like they don't have them or have lost any memory/evidence of them. I know this is often used to political effect, in the worst case by fascist dictators for example, which is one reason why modern recreation/reconstruction of ancient traditions is often so controversial (another reason is that it is seen as inauthentic or fake, being after all only recently made), but from their point of view, what else will those countries do to prove that culturally they are "great" or to be taken seriously? Can countries that only have recently invented, "ancient" native myths, epics, histories, traditions etc., ever become as legitimate as the truly old great myths/histories of countries/cultures that have them?

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Steak48 t1_j07r9q1 wrote

In the US I would say that you could look at our most famous monuments to see what we mythologize. The Jefferson and Lincoln memorials and the Washington Monument in DC and Mt Rushmore in SD are devoted to the founding fathers, the national mall has multiple monuments dedicated to veterans of various wars, and what is probably our most famous monument, the statue of liberty, is devoted to the ideals of freedom and opportunity.

There is no singular national epic of literature here but writers like Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Faulkner and many others I'm not remembering occupy that place in the culture, in my opinion. I would even go so far as to say there are some classic films that fit here as well.

I don't think that most Americans lament not having an age of antiquity to look back on.

But I guess to answer your question, you use what you have.

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banestyrelsen t1_j07ws30 wrote

I don’t think it makes much difference for the vast majority of people because most people simply don’t give a shit about history. I’m from Scandinavia which supposedly has a lot of this stuff, but people here tend to know very little about the pre-Christian culture of 1000+ years ago and care even less. People have a vague idea of who Thor and Odin are but that’s pretty much it.

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Bothered_Withersby t1_j08zsln wrote

It depends largely on how much the contemporary culture defines itself from some element of the real or imagined past. Fascist Italy wanted to restore and/or strengthen the association of then-contemporary Italians to the ancient Romans, largely driven by the dissonance between Italy's historical pretentions and real geopolitical status. Repeated military defeat has severed one from the other, whereby a modern Italian is likely to feel pride in a general sense about individual or collective triumphs popularly ascribed, while simultaneously expressing cynicism about his fellow countrymen of the present day.

Nazi Germany had similar allusions to an imagined past for many of the same reasons. Germans felt a great dissonance between their reduced status in the aftermath of WWI and their collective identity as a first world nation. Because there existed no documented ancient Germanic state, they simply created one from an amalgam of foreign myths and outright lies. The Rig Veda is evidence that some group of ancient people, likely from current day Iran, wrote in an ancient "Aryan" language. Through many levels of alteration and distortion, this becomes "evidence" that a race of superhumans migrated from India to Germany, which was conveniently the location of those fabricating the narrative. Thus, one's ancestors are no longer from the loose confederation of Germanic tribes inhabiting central Europe, but from an imaginary super race that had an advanced culture and language but somehow neglected to use either of them after leaving Iran. I can't speak for how contemporary Germans identify with the past, if at all, but from my interactions, I sense a fair amount of pride in the present, and significantly less focus on the past, a sort of inverse of the Italian, who wishes to belong to any time except the present. Again, it has much to do with their current socioeconomic status.

The better off you (or the group you identify with) are doing in the present, the less you feel the need to link to a glorious past, real or imagined.

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FixingandDrinking t1_j09auem wrote

We are a country of immigrants who took land and lives under the banner of we need it more then you and now scream about letting immigrants in. We have proud moments but I bet you didn't know there is a good chance America would not be what it is today if not for surrounding a neutral town and demanding the women and children of king Phillips tribe causing him to rush in to an ambush. We were losing and knew it.

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TreeMcBean t1_j09csns wrote

Very interesting question. I think it's possible for recent mythologies to become as legitimate as ancient ones. They all have to start sometime, right? I don't know how exactly that process will look in the modern world, though. I feel like so many stories are based on the archetypes of ancient myth, from books to films and movies. That is the key to embedding them in our collective unconscious. But which versions will last? Hard to say. I read once that the only thing every society on earth has always had in common is storytelling. It's importance to us as a species is huge. Personally, I hope Middle Earth lasts forever!

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Co0lie5ter t1_j0a87wm wrote

I'm from the west (Nevada). Everyone is pretty into the local indigenous tribes' stories. More so than our own European ones. Usually the spooky ones like skin walkers and water babies. But little of the European ones except the popularized ones.

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claudiusfoughtawhale t1_j0ak5jc wrote

Here in Canada, I think our school system has traditionally tried to do it by tying us into a story of "Western Civilization". As a kid we started our study of history with ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome, then Medieval Europe, then Renaissance/Enlightenment/Napoleon Era etc. So for a white kid in a mostly-white small town, the stories of Egypt, Greece and Rome were 'our' mythology. We also have some historical events like Vimy Ridge that have become Canadian myths in a sense, but we don't take them very seriously, at least not today.

I've been out of the school system for a while but I know there are much more earnest efforts today to bring in Indigenous stories, history, knowledge etc - we had only a few units here and there when I was a kid. We are also becoming more and more diverse as a country, and that means more people bringing with them the wonderful stories and myths of their own cultures.

Sometimes I do miss the sense of ancient history and I wonder what it would be like to grow up in one of those countries. We're certainly missing out in the museum and art gallery department! But I also feel like I can admire and enjoy the histories and mythologies of all peoples, our shared human heritage.

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ThatGIRLkimT t1_j0asdfw wrote

Sounds interesting. I love ancient history and myths.

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MorrisonsLament t1_j0bfxey wrote

Icelander here, and the situation has changed a bit here since Independence in 1944, after we split with Denmark there has been a concerted effort to create a uniquely Icelandic identity which is in many ways a Disney version of pre-Christian traditions. It helps that most of what is known about those traditions was written down here first, but most people lack understanding of the fact that there was a gap of many centuries from Christianization in 1000 until we wrote down the "ancient myths" so they are probably heavily Christianized, even the Eddas

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banestyrelsen t1_j0bmiow wrote

And in “continental” Scandinavia the problem is compounded because we have so few very few sources of our own that we rely heavily on Icelandic sources, but we can’t assume that what people believed in Iceland is the same as what they believed in Denmark or Sweden; there may have been significant regional differences.

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The_Evanator2 t1_j0fob0o wrote

Ya I'm from northern California. Native history is fascinating and really interesting to learn about. California had the highest concentration of native Americans. Chico state was built basically on the ground of the of where the mechoopda village was located. To be specific, I played for the rugby club there.

My coach for a couple years worked on the reservation outside chico and apparently the rugby and athletic fields are exactly where the tribes main location was. The club now has a piece mechoopda art on the back of their jerseys. Super awesome

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Darth_Barleycorn t1_j0g9fug wrote

It seems that your ignoring something that lies deeper than nationality, culture.

People in new countries carry their cultural heritage with them. North Americans are steeped in the history and stories of Western Europe.

Tolkien seemed to get sidetracked by the single detail of language, modern English, while talking about the cultural heritage of England from Celts, Germanic peoples, etc.

There's no one or group who justs comes into existence with no past and no connections to something before.

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torgoboi t1_j0i65lv wrote

I was thinking this as well. Our historical memory is super embedded into our culture in the US.

I think a lot of Americans also tend to look back to or identify with a mythologized version of the countries their families immigrated from, if they have that knowledge, because we don't have such a long history of being in one place and having the long origin story there. So they can look back at that cultural group and borrow material from there too.

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ammonium_bot t1_j0ia449 wrote

> it more then you

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GSilky t1_j0qsz7f wrote

If the myth resonates with people it's not difficult to install it. There are certain sign symbols an artist uses that trigger a reaction in most people, these are the ingredients to what becomes a mythology later. If you look at what the Soviet and Nazi propagandists were doing you can see the attempts to create a new myth, and it was pretty effective.

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claudiusfoughtawhale t1_j11aeym wrote

Yup. My Dad grew up in the area that the Riel Rebellion was fought in, and so those stories were a big part of their history growing up, while for me living in a different part of the country it was just one short unit we studied one year. It's a big country, so I'm sure there are lots of regional 'myths' as well.

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Annomaander_Rake t1_j16s7z6 wrote

With how impactful and influential Tolkiens work has become, I bet middle earth will end up having a greater impact on society in the long run, than the impact Shakespeare has had over the last 300 years or so. I could be wrong but I don’t think it’s a far fetched guess. Tolkiens influence will continue to expand again and again with every subsequent generation of storytellers that draws on Tolkien’s influence.

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Annomaander_Rake t1_j16sqr4 wrote

I think you’re essentially correct. Being that we are a mongrel nation that has no clear ancestry beyond the 1600s, our long term mythology has to be borrow from the old world. I’m sure there are villiges in Romania with stories that go back millennia. Since people have been living there so damn long lol

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thorny-devil t1_j18uo0h wrote

If you want a good example just look at The Aeneid.

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