My own English translation of the Manchu literary source about the Battle of Sarhv, a battle between a Chinese-Mongolian-Korean joint force and Manchus horde./Mini beye hergenleme Manju gisun suduri de Sarhv daini Ingri gisun ubaliyambure, Nikasi Monggoso Korise i cooha dainde Manju gurunbe afanuha.

Submitted by Karvier t3_zjrk9h in history

The Sure(meaning smart in Manchu)Khan said: "This time the Chinese army finally came. We got 500 troops on the southern front and it would be more than sufficient. For I know the Chinese came from the south were nothing but bait to lure us. The main enemy force shall come from the west, from Fushun the Chinese city! And we will head there" He then bestowed the command of the troops in the capital to the princes and ministers and ordered them to set off at 7:00 am.

During their march, they received an intelligence saying another Chinese regiment was spotted in Qinghe, the Chinese city. The Crown Prince said: "Qinghe was far away so I will send 200 troops to just delay them. The direction of the main army remains the same." After the army went through Jaka pass at 11:00 am, everyone put on their armour. Then in Hejige, a certain man reported: "The Chinese army saw our transportation troops climb up the Girin Mountain in Jaxehexen, and they are besieging our camp on the mountain now ." When the army arrived at Jaxehexen at 1:00 pm, they found 20k Chinese soldiers besieging the construction site of our new capital, our transportation troops were camping on the top of Girin Mountain, and another Chinese regiment was stationed on the top of Sarhv Mountain. The 400 cavalries that had been sent to reinforce the troops before had successfully sneaked from the Chinese detection and followed them from Sarhv to Jaxehexen Ferry. And our troops on Girin Mountain conducted a strike against the surrounding enemies and killed hundreds of them.

Speculating this, The crown prince told the princes and ministers: "That 400 cavalry and our transportation troops have joined each other in Girin Mountain. Now we’ll send an additional 1,000 armoured elites to break through the encirclement and climb up the mountain, then they shall attack the enemy together from there. After that, we will send the four banners of the right wing to help them, while the four banners of the left wing remain in their spot to keep an eye on Mount Sarhv.” Then the Sure Khan arrived, and he said, “It’s 5:00 pm, and it’s already getting dark, the four banners on the left wing should raid Mount Sarhv instead, if we defeat Chinese on that mountain, the morale of the enemy soldiers in Jaxehexen will be shaken.”

So he ordered one banner of the ring wing to join the left, and ordered the other three banners to monitor Jaxehexen. The plan was that after the enemy of Sarhv was defeated, the three banners of the right wing would support our troops on Girin Mountain when they charged down.（see the rest of the text in the comment section)

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141292 t1_izwkywa wrote

Thanks for posting really cool

Great translation, would love to see more of this in the sub.

Do you have any more info on failing Chinese guns?

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Karvier OP t1_izwl51p wrote

Well it appeared to me that even the Manchus themselves were quite shocked when they discovered how bad those Chinese soldiers’ weapons were, you don’t usually see your enemies armed with bamboo spears, it’s almost hilarious.

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141292 t1_izwlvxc wrote

"the Chinese guns failed; this was perceived"

Is written somewhere above.

I know that gun shipments to china were often in disrepair "the devil soldier" highlighting the life of Frederick t ward mentions this alot.

Would be interested to know the culture around guns for this battle

(Sorry for phrasing sick and stoned)

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Karvier OP t1_izwmd4s wrote

Well, apparently during this battle the guns of Chinese could not work properly for some reason, their artillery couldn’t even make any sounds. Perceived that, the Manchu khan decided to charge directly to the the Chinese line and they were wiped out very quickly and easily since they had neither functioning weapons nor armours.

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HisKoR t1_izwoi8g wrote

Most likely rusted out muskets brought from some dinky storehouse with mishaped musket balls and poor quality gunpowder etc. Even well maintained muskets were notoriously inaccurate with soldiers firing over the heads of their enemies even during the American Civil War. So, I can imagine even worse issues with the Ming forces which were pretty much just cannon fodder by the 16th century. Doubt they had any proper musket training nor was combined arms a concept understood in China at the time.

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Karvier OP t1_izwoopp wrote

I think these records about ill-equipped Chinese army could only be found in Manchu literary sources though. Contemporary Chinese and later Manchu sponsored Chinese literary sources have seemingly omitted these anecdotes.

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HisKoR t1_izwpagl wrote

Impossible to know for sure but effective use of musketry by the Japanese made a huge impression on Korean and Ming soldiers during the Imjin Wars in Korea. Dedicated musketeer units were formed in both countries (although Ming most likely already possessed some musketeers even before the war), however Japanese muskets were works of art, well made by master sword blacksmiths and well appreciated. China and Korea tried to imitate the Japanese use of muskets but corruption ensured that most muskets were useless on the battlefield as they were not well maintained nor constantly practiced with. The worse thing for a soldier is to have an unreliable weapon.

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Intranetusa t1_j0ctqku wrote

>Doubt they had any proper musket training nor was combined arms a concept understood in China at the time.

Combined arms was a concept understood at the time (Ming Dynasty in this 17th century battle) and had been used since the 400s BC (when crossbowmen were combined with archers, pikemen, halberdiers, etc in Warring States armies). The Ming Dynasty had pike formations that combined musketeers with pikemen and archers.

The 16th century Ming general Qi Jiguang even developed a quasi-pike formation called the Mandarin duck that combined shielded swordsmen + pikemen + ranged troops (muskets, archers, etc) + a guy with a weird polearm called the wolf's brush.

The problem here was not the lack of knowledge, but that government corruption and incompetence meant the soldiers were not properly equipped or trained to use combined arms combat correctly.

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HisKoR t1_j0gkr56 wrote

>Combined arms was a concept understood at the time (Ming Dynasty in this 17th century battle) and had been used since the 400s BC (when crossbowmen were combined with archers, pikemen, halberdiers, etc in Warring States armies). The Ming Dynasty had pike formations that combined musketeers with pikemen and archers.

Military tactics and theory were not directly passed down throughout Chinese history. Many things related to mathematics, science, engineering, military strategy etc. were either rediscovered or reinvented hundreds of years later or not even known that the Chinese possessed such knowledge till the 20th century until studies by Sino Scholars. So just because there is an example from BC's, doesn't mean it was still actively analyzed in AD.

And the reason I said the Ming had no concept of combined arms was I meant they had no idea how to use musketeers and artillery with their infantry and cavalry. So firearms weren't very effective, which is why the Chinese never fully invested them in as opposed to the Japanese and Europeans who saw the huge advantage that firearms had and basically equipped their entire armies with. The Japanese actually used massed rotating volley fire combined with infantry and cavalry support to resist charges and push back against the enemy. The musketeers were used like how Napoleon used artillery and cavalry together. Break up the formation of the enemy with withering firepower and charge in with cavalry backed up by infantry. The Ming were defeated in almost every pitched battle against the Japanese in Korea and only pushed through due to the Japanese running out of supplies or retreating when in danger of being isolated by the Ming and Joseon forces. So yea, maybe some Chinese strategists were aware and implemented such tactics but clearly those ideas were not spread to the entire Ming military nor became uniform tactical theory across the country.

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>The 16th century Ming general Qi Jiguang even developed a quasi-pike formation called the Mandarin duck that combined shielded swordsmen + pikemen + ranged troops (muskets, archers, etc) + a guy with a weird polearm called the wolf's brush.

You're talking about the polearm that was like a bamboo branch that basically shoved in the enemy's face right? I've heard of this too but I'm assuming it was that one general's tactic and no one else used it. And it seems he mostly used it against Japanese pirates and rebels in the South. No idea how it would have fared against the Manchus or actual Japanese military units.

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Karvier OP t1_izw57y0 wrote

  1. At 4:00 pm on the same day, our army went camping in Gurbon. There was a certain man who came from Hetu Alah, the capital city reported:” we found a Chinese-Mongolian joint force marching from south Donge toward our capital. ”The khan said:” Let sir Hvrhan head there with 1000 troops for now, and my sons shall lead the main force to go fight with them tomorrow. ” The next day, Taiji Amin led another 2000 troops to Donge, while the Khan and crown prince went to Jaxehexen to perform sacrifices to the goddesses, thanking them for helping our army overcome the Chinese. Eight bulls were sacrificed on the battlefield.

The Crown prince then said to the Khan:” I would like to go to gather some intelligence, I will be with my 20 companions and we will disguise ourselves as locals. My father, you can come later after the completion of the ritual.” The khan praised the saying of the Prince, and then the crown prince and prince Manggvltai left the site. Taiji Hong the fourth prince said to the Khan:” I heard my brother has gone away. I'd like to go with him.” The Khan told him:” Your brother went to gather some intelligence, we’ll go meet them together later. ” Taiji Hong then said:” Why would I stay behind if my brother had gone for glory?” So he went away as well. The crown prince left at 1:00 pm on the 3rd day of the month and reached Hetu alah at 5:00 pm on the same day. The ladies and daughters of the Khan gathered around him as soon as he entered the office, they asked him:” Now we heard there is another enemy army targeting the capital, do we have any plans? ” The crown prince said: “we have already annihilated the enemy forces on the western front and we will also handle this other division properly, we just need some time. I will personally lead the army to fight them if my father, the khan, gives out the order.” He then returned and stayed in Datoon waiting for the Khan.

After completing the ritual, the khan led the main army back and reached the capital in 12 hours at 3:00 am. Then in the morning, the crown prince and the second prince led all the armoured troops to go searching for the Chinese force in Donge while the khan himself stayed in the capital with 4000 troops to prevent potential Mongolian raids. The crown prince rode for 3 days, on the fourth day he reached the forest of Gaha, the horse moved slower in these woods. At 9:00 am, they encountered 20k Elite Chinese forces right after they passed Varkash. Seeing the enemy sent less than 10k troops as spearheads, the crown prince went against them. The Chinese were defeated and retreated to Abudala Mountain.

The crown prince planned to lead the force to occupy the peak of Abudala, so our forces would have the high ground. Taiji Hong said:” My brother, as the commander it's better for you to lead the main force, I will go occupy the mountain top then the enemy will be flanked by us.” The crown prince agreed with him and said:” good idea, we will act in this way: I will lead the forces to move to the west while you go charge to the mountaintop with the ring wing. But you have to listen to me, do not charge into enemies by yourself and your companions, you are a general, not a soldier. Okay?” Taiji Hong then charged into the enemies by himself with 30 of his companions to paralyze the foes so they could not fire their guns properly. But these soldiers were very determined and the fourth prince could not defeat them even with the help of the other banners of the ring wing. So the crown prince launched an attack from the west side with the banners of the left wing and the Chinese finally started to retreat toward Varkash while we chased after them.

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Karvier OP t1_izw5999 wrote

  1. The previously mentioned forces led by Sir Hvrhan and Taiji Amin were hiding in the wilderness up until now, they saw the Chinese army enter the valley of Abudala. So they set up an ambush there around the mouth of the valley, the defeated Chinese troops chased by the crown prince then fell into it and were all annihilated, their commander lieutenant general Ting Lu included. Then the troops of Sir Hvrhan and Taiji Amin joined with the main force led by the crown prince in Varkash.

They found there was a Chinese-Korean joint force stationed in Fuca. The crown prince said:” Quickly, let our soldiers eat some musi(meaning cooked noodles in manchu) and our horses drink some water.” Then our army went to battle again, these enemies, however, were ill-equipped. The Chinese were all using bamboo spears and wearing wooden or bull-skin armour while all the Koreans wore armour made of paper. They were about 20k in number and they deployed guns in the wilderness south of Fuca, but their guns were also of very poor quality, they could not even make any firing noise with them. So we went against them and all of a sudden the direction of the wind changed, it started to blow toward our enemies. So we charged toward them with the cover of dust and smoke, and we shot and killed every single one of them in less than 15 minutes, even before the dust settled.

There was another Korean regiment stationed on the mountain Goryeo in the Fulgiyan at that time. They were utterly scared after they saw their 20k-strong allies were annihilated in less than 15 minutes. They gathered together and said:” there would be no other outcome except certain death if we carry on the fight, we need to go and surrender to these barbarians, even if they chose to kill all the POWs later, we’ll at least get a bloodless death(I am not sure what do they mean by saying this)”

So they decided to put down their banner and send a certain man with their military standard to our camp, that man said:” This is not our war, we are only participating in this war to return the favour to China because they helped us a lot during the Japanese invasion, at that time our land and city were all taken by the Japanese and we won't be able to survive without the helping hand of them. But now you have killed every single person of our joint force in less than 15 minutes, and our remaining troops on the mountain Goryeo were all Koreans except one Chinese Brigadier general and his followers. We will give them to you if you accept our surrender.” The crown prince said to other princes:” we could either accept their surrender or kill them all, but I heard that forgiveness brought more fame than cruelty, so I think it would be better to accept their surrender.” After a discussion between princes and ministers, the crown prince said to the Korean messenger:” you should ask your commander to come to talk to me, so you can prove your sincerity. Otherwise, I won't trust you and will order my troops to go kill every single one of your comrades.”

The commander of the Koreans replied as such:” I am trying to pacify my troops, there might be some potential unrest if I left the army now. I will send my vice commanders to your camp and stay there as a hostage. Tomorrow I will lead all the other troops to your camp.” Then he sent two high-ranked officers with all the Chinese in chains to our camp, and the Chinese Brigadier general hung himself. Then the vice commanders met the crown prince, the prince saluted these two and held a feast to celebrate. The next day, which is the fifth day of the month, the Korean commander Gang Hongrip led 5k Koreans to our camp, and the crown prince received him in the same manner. Thus in this single battle, we killed nearly 50k Chinese-Korean joint force and took 5k POWs.

The next day the crown prince sent the POWs to Hetu Alah to perform prostration in front of the Khan while he himself camping on the battlefield for another 3 days to collect population, horses and equipments. On the same night, two houses in the capital city caught fire, the Khan said:” it would be better if it rains a bit! There would be nothing left if the entire city caught fire! Though only 2 houses were on fire, it could spread out!” Then he ordered everyone to remove the combustibles from the roof of their houses. When General Yang, the commander of the entire armed force, heard that 3 out of the 4 deployed armies were destroyed, he immediately ordered the remaining one to retreat. Seeing this, 20 soldiers of our garrison decided to do something funny. They stood on the mountaintop, yelled at the retreating Chinese army, tied their hats on their bows and waved it backwardly, pretending there was lots of reinforcement coming. The retreating Chinese troops were scared by this and they started to run away unorganizedly, then these braves attacked their rear, killed 40 of them and took 50 pieces of weapons. There were around 1000 horses killed during the rout.

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Karvier OP t1_izw56wh wrote

  1. ⁠⁠At that time, the Chinese deployed artillery guns and batteries on Sarhv Mountain. Our Five Banners attacked the mountaintop bravely and annihilated them in a short while. They then immediately crossed the river, our troops on the Girin Mountain also started to attack Jaxehexen, and the two banners of the right wing also outflanked them from the south side, we fought with muskets and bows and defeated them in less than two hours. Then we chased them to the top of Gurcin Mountain. It was already dark then, so our soldiers surrounded the mountain and killed those Chinese who tried to break out from the encirclement. The Sure Khan spent the night on Mount Bagrada and the crown Prince on Mount Hark. The other princes and ministers were camping along the Tum River. They saw a large group of Chinese troops forming formations between the south of Xanggxan Mountain and the north of Gurcin Mountain, and those foes were beating gongs and drums. So a report was sent to the Crown prince, he said: "Don't reveal yourself, just keep observing in secret and I shall head there tomorrow."

The next day, the Crown prince led the army there and the Chinese immediately retreated into the triple trench they had dug in the night. They formed a phalanx formation, and deployed cavalry outside the trench, with a row of guns in front of them and three rows of heavy guns behind. In the west, there was yet another 10k-strong Chinese division stationed on Furfen Mountain, three miles away from Xanggxan Mountain. The Crown prince then sent three envoys to the Khan one after another. At that time, the Khan was in the wilderness of Olyvome. He found there were 10k Chinese marching with guns, chariots and rattan plates. He then led less than a thousand elite bannermen to attack them. The Chinese immediately retreated into the trenches to defend themselves. The Khan then dismounted and attacked the trench with half of his men, but the guns of the Chinese were of poor quality, they tried to fire them but it won't work. Perceiving this, our army then attacked together, overturned their chariots, and killed all the 10,000 Chinese troops.

During the withdrawal, the Khan received those envoys from the crown prince, so Sure Khan rode forward to the prince without waiting for others. Arriving at high noon, the Khan said: "Our army must take Gurcin Mountain first, then attack from the high ground to win." When the elite bannermen were about to launch an attack on the mountain they saw Chinese soldiers on the ground starting to come out of the trench, the Khan then said: "This is it, they are going to fight us. Withdrawal my previous order, we must dismount quickly and fight them." The crown prince asked a certain man to inform two banners of the left wing to dismount. But the Chinese force was approaching and there were only 50-60 of our men who had dismounted, the crown prince thus said to Khan: "Khan my Father, the critical moment has come. I will lead an attack on the Chinese right now. ” So he rushed into the enemy’s formation on horseback and wiped out the vanguard of the Chinese. Seeing the approaching Chinese army, the other six banners did not have time to form a wedge formation. The one who rode fast led the charge and those who were slow followed them like they were hunting some beasts. Immediately after they reached the front they rushed in, disregarded the guns and artillery of the Chinese, and the enemies retreated. We chased them into the wilderness of Xanggxan Mountain, forcing them to throw themselves into the river or fall into the swamp, thus killing many enemies. Then we chased down the other fleeing enemies. Some of them fled to the mountains. We encircled them and then we sent half of our soldiers to kill them all.

After this victory, we turned back to attack the 10k Chinese division on Furfen Mountain. Half of our army were ordered to dismount, among them those who wore heavy armour charged into the enemy line with spears and broadswords in their hand, the lightly armoured troops shot arrows from behind. The other half of the men stayed in the rear on their horses. That was how we attacked the mountain, the Chinese army stood on their ground. They defended themselves with their shields and fired guns at us, but like before these guns could not harm our soldiers. We then launched a devastating blow and killed all these 10k Chinese troops before 3:00 pm.

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HisKoR t1_izwnxg6 wrote

Never quite understood why Chinese and Korean armor quality seemed to deteriorate by the 15th and 16th centuries to the point that normal foot soldiers barely wore any armor. Ive heard armor was rendered ineffective by guns but guns were expensive and most armies wouldnt have been equipped with them, especially the Manchus or Mongolians etc. Also, Japan still used high quality armor even though they spearheaded volley tactics in Asia at the time. Seems more like the institutions in both China and Korea were so eroded by corruption and incompetence that soldiers were regarded as expendable and thus werent provided with armor. I read that by the 18th century, most Qing brigandine armor didnt even have any real iron plates inserted between the cloth and was basically just cloth with metal studs for show.

Brigandine armor also seems to have become most popular sometime during the 14th to 15th century in East Asia, but brigandine also seems like the cheapest armor option between plate, chainmail, lamellar, and laminar. Ive wondered if doubling as a coat made it more popular or if it was just the cheapest option since its easier to maintain than the other armor types and less obvious if the metal plates were missing or of bad quality.

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Karvier OP t1_izwq49r wrote

The more manpower you have, the more likely you will consider them as cannon fodders. For example, the Manchus conducted a census at 1649, and there were only 55330 adult males(yes) found from the entire Manchus population. So they would certainly care more about the qualities of their soldier’s equipments, otherwise they as a people won’t last very long.

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War_Hymn t1_j007bsm wrote

>but guns were expensive and most armies wouldnt have been equipped with them

Actually, firearm use in China was pretty prolific by the time of the Ming Dynasty. Your argument about higher cost can be applied to crossbows as well, but obviously they were still issued and deployed on a large scale despite this.

Armour (even fabric or leather based armour) is expensive as well, so it was mostly worn by elite or noble troops who could afford it. Also keep in mind that the Chinese and Koreans made heavier use of peasant levies/conscripts in their militaries relative to their European/Japanese counterparts (who mostly depended on smaller armies of professional/semi-professional soldiers), so obviously had a harder time outfitting their entire forces with armour.

>Seems more like the institutions in both China and Korea were so eroded by corruption and incompetence that soldiers were regarded as expendable and thus werent provided with armor.

I don't know about Korea, but in the case of Qing China that is sort of true. In the late-1700s, the Qing emperor enacted a freeze on troop salaries, so soldier pay didn't keep up with inflation. The Banner armies in particular suffered from lack of armed conflict in the relative peaceful period between the Qing invasion of Vietnam (1789) and the 1st Opium War (1839).

The lack of fighting led to idleness and neglect in maintaining combat effectiveness (instead of training, Banner soldiers spent their time drinking and gambling). Also with the way the Qing military worked, Banner troops got paid much more when on campaign. Since they were also prohibited from doing other jobs or running businesses, in peacetime they had no means of income other than the small stipend (2-4 taels of silver per month) provided by the imperial court that was more for maintaining equipment and horses (Banner troops had to buy their own). With the pay freeze and inflation, lack of combat and the usual loot gained from pillaging the enemy, most Banner troops found themselves in an economic tough spot. Despite their reputation as the Qing's elite troops many were impoverished by standards of the time, and their situation was passed on to their children as their position/duties in the Banner forces were hereditary. I won't be surprised if these Bannermen were regularly pawning off their father or grandfather's armour and weapons for booze money as a result of their poverty.

The Green Standard forces weren't any better, facing serious issues in desertion, corruption (officers frequently stole the pay of their soldiers, or straight made up the number of recruits they had to embezzle money from the imperial court), and lack of funding.

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