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ReallyFineWhine t1_izgvda8 wrote

Reply to comment by ArmDoc in Conflict in Central Europe leading to Bronze Age Collapse by Gideonn1021

Just finished reading this. Author gives a lot of background of what that part of the world looked before "it" happened, and what it looked like after, but still not much definitive about what "it" was that happened.

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WhoopingWillow t1_izh99j2 wrote

That's part of the mystery that I love. Some places were clearly razed by an army, others seem to have been destroyed by earthquakes, some had the elite section of the city destroyed but the rest relatively untouched, iirc one place had a single temple preserved. Sure seems like a hellish time to live in that area!

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Gideonn1021 OP t1_izhd3or wrote

That is really interesting, it really does leave you wondering!

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CallFromMargin t1_izhy6uz wrote

The "IT" is the mistery. It probably was a combination of climate change (which caused food shortages), shitty natural phenomena (i.e. earthquicks in Greece) and complex military blocks going to war with each other. It's perfectly possible that "sea people" were nothing more than totally-not-guys-from-other-military-alliance doing what privateers do. It's also possible that one faction discovered iron working and decided to strike with their more advanced, better working new shiny tools, or discovered new techniques that made chariots obsolete.

Regarding migrations, always take legends with a giant grain of salt. Spartans had a legend saying they are sons of Hercules who came back to Greece from the north and enslaved the local population.

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kevineleveneleven t1_izi3ye4 wrote

Iron production was known during the bronze age but not its proper heat treatment, so it was very soft and inferior to the bronze of the era. After international trade had broken down and tin was no longer available to make bronze, the price of bronze skyrocketed, necessitating the use of iron. It took a long time for the heat treatment process of iron to be developed to the point where it was superior to bronze. We could say that it was the late bronze age collapse that led to the Iron Age -- the tin shortage necessitated it.

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CallFromMargin t1_izi5cjt wrote

This completely ignores the loss of knowledge that was the result of bronze age collapse. Entire regions "forgot" how to write and "forgot" agricultural techniques like irregation, so why couldn't they forget how to make good quality iron?

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SpaceSweede t1_izihr6v wrote

Because making Iron was essential for survival and also a great way to become rich. The skill of writing not so much when the Palace you used to work in was a ruin and deserted.

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CallFromMargin t1_izil47g wrote

The skills of agriculture and irregation were also essential for survival, and would make you rich when you sold your bountiful harvest, yet they were lost, entire regions with huge irregation systems were abandoned, and even hundreds of years later were not inhabited.

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kevineleveneleven t1_izjv0so wrote

There is no evidence that anyone knew how to heat treat iron during the bronze age. We can analyze the crystal structure of iron artifacts and know what processes were involved in the production. Neither are there any literary references to superior iron weaponry and armor.

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Germanofthebored t1_izilhcx wrote

I don’t really know much about (pre)history, but I was always wondering if iron technology made the extensive trade systems that were needed to gather the ingredients for bronze unnecessary, and that breakdown of “international” trade caused the collapse of civilization

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kevineleveneleven t1_izjwyvq wrote

Those trade networks for tin really weren't necessary. Somehow people didn't realize there is tin in both Anatolia and in mainland Greece. The later Phoenicians established trade ports as far as Cadiz in Spain where they traded for tin from Britain. This was an unnecessarily long way for tin to travel. But yes, the skyrocketing bronze prices might have bankrupted Egypt as it armed and armored its soldiers to prepare for the expected attack of the Sea Peoples. Egypt managed to defeat them, but it was never the same again.

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mapadofu t1_izk0xko wrote

It’s fun to think about how we now see iron(steel) as obviously superior to bronze, but at the time using iron was probably seen as a stopgap.

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Em_isme t1_izhyxs8 wrote

Same feeling. The book left me more knowledgeable about things that I didn’t want this book to teach me and none the wiser about what I actually wanted to know.

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