MeatballDom OP t1_ix6luoz wrote
Reply to comment by teddylumpskins in An archaeologist's rebuttal against Graham Hancock and Netflix's Ancient Apocalypse by MeatballDom
>When he says things like “they don’t want to accept this because it destroys their narrative.”
It always amuses me when people not working or experienced with academia say stuff like that. Like you say, all it takes is one look in any peer-reviewed journal to see that academia is people constantly trying to prove other academics wrong.
It's literally a requirement for PhDs in History and Archaeology (and some MAs depending on the programme) to create original research that hasn't been done before. Like you say, a huge new discovery of an ancient civilisation would be an academic's dream. I've gotten articles and several conference presentations out of analysing single words from obscure ancient texts. Just one artifact from some mysterious peoples would be career changing, let alone evidence of some massive ancient transglobal society.
drunkinmidget t1_ix77f6c wrote
PhD in History here.
It's sadly not quite that simple. There are often paradigms that are difficult to shift. Disproving one theory/interpretation or showing how something was different than we previously understood can be fantastic for one Historians career, but st the same time it is detrimental to (typically) numerous Historians whose work has revolved around what is being "discredited." Thus, people can get very defensive over a given interpretation of the past.
Even in fields covering more recent history, such as mine, where it is widely understood that our understanding of the past will change repeatedly as new information is retrieved (personal papers being accessiblr after people die, old folks not caring anymore and spilling the beans, government document declassification, etc.), you still get some very... aggressive defense of one's work from people.
So, if you are looking at a peer reviewed journal, for example, you won't see this conflict from just taking a look from the outside. But if your article is going against the tide of the field's accepted interpretation of an event, behind the scenes you may have trouble. Your article is going to be sent out to two of the field's leading Historians to review. When they read your article basically saying that their past work is wrong, they will review your article poorly and tell the editor not to print it. The editors go off the reviewers, then you don't get printed.
On the outside, you only see articles being printed with new stuff in it, but you would never know that all those articles are bringing in new stuff that doesn't go drastically against the grain of leading Historians who are reviewing those articles.
This is the same process with university published books. It's really hard to get a high quality publication in general if you are going radically against the accepted narrative for these reasons, and thus, you don't get paradigm shifts often. It can sometimes take scholars retiring and a new generation who is less attached and defensive to become the new batch of senior scholars doing reviews.
Tldr - He isn't making that outlandish of a claim. Particularly in a field that has little hard evidence to go by, it's very difficult to shift the accepted interpretation of the past.
maluminse t1_ix7bp4l wrote
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
If I knew how to give a Reddit award I would. Thanks for saying this I experienced this quite a bit.
Mind-Individual t1_ix7b5rj wrote
>Tldr - He isn't making that outlandish of a claim. Particularly in a field that has little hard evidence to go by, it's very difficult to shift the accepted interpretation of the past.
Yes! I watched the show, and it's not the outlandish claims, it the lack of evidence. Like dude, just find evidence for your theories. It honestly reminded me of astrology, which I'm a fan of, but know so well the billion theories astrologers have and claim their opinion is evidence....like bye.
piazza t1_ix7c6ty wrote
This. He's like "and then they found a layer that was even older, going back to 24,000 years ago!"
<drone shot, another shot of him walking, moving to a new location>
Me: but you never explained how they arrived at 24,000 years! How? Carbon dating, or what?
Mind-Individual t1_ix7cgud wrote
The carbon dating!....That's all I kept think about! It would literally destroy every theory he has.
Also found out that his son is the Senior Manager of Unscripted Originals at Netflix.
thejoosep12 t1_ix79yy7 wrote
While there is some pushback against new thought in history and archaeology, Hancock uses it as an excuse for why his batshit insane and evidence free theories aren't being considered by academics. He is a journalist, not a historian or archaeologist and has no real idea on how any of this works.
RealFullBlownRetard t1_ix7bzv9 wrote
A PhD just told you you were wrong...
Belzedar136 t1_ix7ce7n wrote
I mean he says he's he's phd, but we have no evidence of this. Same as Hancock...... wait a second...
thejoosep12 t1_ix7c3z0 wrote
And you don't believe PhDs can't be wrong or disagreed with because...?
InfiniteBarnacle2020 t1_ix72rrr wrote
I've got quite a lot of exposure to academia although I'm not in it and there an element of truth to what he's saying, even though it's not like a deliberate conspiracy.
For instance you talk about PhDs wanting to disprove things, or scientists as a whole.
Any research would have to be signed off by a HOD. The HOD definitely didn't get there by their research into alternative views, more than likely has extensive papers in the current model. So they have a reason to decline research into these alternatives as they think it's a waste of time as theyre invested in the standing theory. The professor probably didn't get to where they are in papers in alternative views as their H score will be a lot higher from being cited with views inline with the consensus. Plus a professor wouldn't want their name attached to a paper that might be considered 'alternative' because 9 times out of 10 it would be shown to be wrong and there's a reputational cost to that.
Then of course all the other ways to get funding to do research goes to committees and boards which again, often are staffed by people who have heavy investment in the accepted views.
These things combined with limited resources in research funding does lead to a very narrow research field.
It would be extremely difficult to actually get funding or the support to study things that goes against what is accepted.
MeatballDom OP t1_ix73g24 wrote
This is why reviewers of PhD theses (and sometimes MAs, it depends) are people outside of the department, outside of the university, and often anonymous. It's also why it's highly discouraged that people work at the same universities that they got their degrees at (although it's not unheard of). We don't care if you can make your supervisor happy. We don't care if you can repeat what your department head likes. We need to show that you can work with the wider academia, and that you can tread water in groups outside of your safety net.
My supervisors and I regularly disagreed on things. But it was my work, and they only stepped in to strongly discourage if they knew for a fact that I was wrong -- and could show it. If I had the evidence to back up my points that's what mattered in the long run.
There is no grand conspiracy to keep people all thinking the same way, it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how academia works. If your idea has no basis in reality then yes, it's going to get shot down, but that doesn't mean that the department isn't open to new ideas, it's just that that idea sucks.
InfiniteBarnacle2020 t1_ix751bl wrote
I actually don't know how History or Arts etc are taught or where you are but here, it's the supervisors that pick the topic for the student (99% of the time anyway). It would often be in the field that the professor is studying usually supporting their work. Maybe in a highly resourced university there may be some blue sky research but as far as I'm aware here, they're all funded to support the work of the professor with topics chosen or suggested by them.
I realise it may vary from country to country and field to field though.
MeatballDom OP t1_ix75qp2 wrote
Yeah I've never heard of anyone having a topic for a PhD in History chosen for them. If someone has ended up in that situation they really didn't try hard to find a supervisor.
Typically how this works is you recognise an area where there is a gap, this is typically something that comes up during your MA research, or otherwise something you've been thinking of for a bit before then. You build up a good base knowledge of the historiography surrounding that topic, and then reach out to those working on or around that topic and see if they would be interested in supervising.
Sometimes it's an outright "sorry, no" for a variety of reasons, and usually there is some discussion and debate about how the project will go, "have you thought of this, have you read this, this has already been done but if you approach it from this angle then..." etc. but not outright "you do this project instead".
There are research projects that professors may be looking for help in that are specific, but that's not PhD level. I.e. "I need a summer researcher to go through these coins and look for x, y, z; build a database that filters a, b, c" or whatever. But that's a different area completely.
thatsandwizard t1_ix75shg wrote
Curious what field you study, as my understanding of PhD research is that it is highly personal and interest driven. Now, I do know people who chose their research based on grants (oh hey, saw-whet owls are getting extra funding, I can eat more than ramen while doing my thesis and similar stories exist) but it’s still a choice/topic of interest in the end
InfiniteBarnacle2020 t1_ix76kxh wrote
My experience is with Earth Science and often they put out adverts for students to study specific topics. They actually have to apply for funding with the topics before even looking for a student.
If you had a topic in mind you would have to convince a professor or supervisor to then pitch that in a funding round. Often they have their own topics they want studied so it would have to be a convincing topic.
poridgepants t1_ix724b7 wrote
But this established academics fight tooth and nail to defend their and their peers work from new hypothesis’ if it goes against theirs
MeatballDom OP t1_ix72zcc wrote
But they have to actually defend it, with evidence, through peer-reviewed works. They can't just say "ain't it slightly suspicious that.... therefore advanced race of early humans is obvious".
Two sides, usually more, are constantly arguing one way or the other, and as time goes on there are shifts, sometimes definitive ones. That's academia in a nutshell. It's fluid, it's constantly changing, but it has strict baseline requirements for evidence.
One that is commonly used for undergrads is: tell me when and where the trireme was invented. The ancient sources don't seem to agree, and the one that really comes out swinging is written long after the others. The archaeological evidence is a bit clearer, but still hard to say as ships don't tend to preserve well in the long-run. So throughout the 19th and 20th centuries historians were looking all the evidence they had and arguing one way or the other, all with some fantastic points of view and interpretations -- academia ENCOURAGES this. This is what we do.
But you do need evidence to back up your interpretation.
[deleted] t1_ix761oe wrote
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[deleted] t1_ix72tl8 wrote
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Subjugatealllife t1_ix6qhsz wrote
Ideals aren’t the same as reality.
[deleted] t1_ix6z25g wrote
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