Esotewi t1_iuyr1mm wrote on November 4, 2022 at 12:25 AM

The term "nuo fu" is indentured slave they existed well into the mid-19th century. Slavery was one of the biggest reason why the republic of China collapsed as the government was backed by major landlords who openly promoted the practice. They would be closer to feudal european household servants. Rich households would always have a few household servants to do the house chores and work the stables.

The practice was so common that people never thought of leaving the landlord's property as they could be fed, have a shelter, get an education and even inherit part of the property in some cases. This differs from the slaves in the americas as there was no inherent belief in a racial caste system. In most cases, indentured slaves were either sold by relatives to pay back loans or sold themselves to escape poverty.

If interested, you can read about the collapse of the Shang Dynasty and the dynamics that slavery played in that era. Ever since the Zhou dynasty took over, they made a point in abolishing slavery and embraced feudal caste systems. Still slaves in all but name. Silver lining is they had the right to not be brutally killed by their masters for ritual purposes. Chattel slavery was indeed abolished, at least according to the laws, some 2500 years ago.

I think some people are mistranslating the term for indentured servitude in the Qing and Ming laws as "chattel slavery". The Qin state's penal punishment for "war criminals" was the closest thing to chattel slavery. But even then, it was the outlier. Not the norm. They only just won a free for all war against 6 other states. There was bound to be widespread repression.

[deleted] t1_ixc9cn3 wrote on November 22, 2022 at 10:42 AM

[deleted]

Esotewi t1_ixebmjk wrote on November 22, 2022 at 8:13 PM

Thanks. That is the word I was looking for. Was on the tip of my tongue. Yes, they adopted serfdom quite soon as compared to the rest of the world.

War_Hymn OP t1_iv31ip5 wrote on November 4, 2022 at 10:15 PM

>I think some people are mistranslating the term for indentured servitude in the Qing and Ming laws as "chattel slavery".

I understand indentured servitude to be: a contract of specified time or monetary amount in which an individual is to work for the contract holder until their obligations are fulfilled. I do know that there was a large segment of indentured workers in China up to the modern era - but are these really the same "slaves" being referenced by the translated Qing legal code? I would think indentured workers had some fundamental rights, like the right to marry (as was the case in Europe and colonial Americas).

Under the Qing legal code, the "slaves" were prohibited from marrying, even with permission from their masters. The "slaves" were also prohibited from misrepresenting themselves as freedmen or "honourable persons" (which I take to mean ordinary citizens). Penalties for injuring or kidnapping a "slave" are also reduced compare to committing same acts on an ordinary citizen. In turn, certain crimes committed by "slaves" have increased penalties relative to an ordinary citizen. These "slaves" as referenced seem to be inherently treated as second class subjects by the Qing legal system.

Could Qing indentured workers or slaves be sold or traded at will by their masters? Were their children born free or become indentured/enslaved themselves?

Thanks for commenting :).

Esotewi t1_ivb5s7b wrote on November 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM

I am more knowledgeable about the fall of the Shang dynasty than the Qing. Abolishment of slavery was a centerpiece reform made by the Zhou rulers. Hopefully someone else would have an answer to your question. The Manchu/Jurchens did practice slavery as it was common in the northern steppes to own slaves. Not sure if they kept the practice during the Qing. One could theorize that turkic customs were imported into the empire over the millenia and the laws shifted quite a bit, but I have no evidence nor example to give. Iirc, one of the reasons Genghis Khan declared war on the then Jurchen ruled Jin dynasty was because of rampant slave trade which put many turkic people in bondage in the empire. There were also many Sodgian traders who were famous for introducing slave trade to the then flourishing Tang Dynasty when the culture swinged more liberal and open to foreign culture.