Submitted by spinnybingle t3_yb5277 in history

History of Korea (0) pre-historic influences

History of Korea (1) Gojoseon [around 1000 BC ~ 108 BC]

History of Korea (2) Three Kingdoms (Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla) and Unified Silla [around 100 BC ~ 935]

History of Korea (3) Goryeo, Korea's medieval kingdom [918 - 1392]

History of Korea (4) Joseon, the predecessor of modern Korea(s): neo-Confucian orthodoxy and the origin of the hermit kingdom [1392 - 1910]

Phase 3. Japan and Qing Invasions [the early 17th century]

10. Japan invades - the Imjin War (1592-1598) link

Then finally the unified Japan invaded, led by Toyotomi Hideyoshi (a well-known name to most Koreans). Japan first asked for "a free passage for Japanese troops en route to China," Joseon refused, and Japan soon invaded.

  • For the reasons mentioned above, Japan had a stronger and larger market economy, soldiers with a lot more military experience, and muskets imported from the Portuguese.
  • As I look back, what's kind of sobering is that Joseon Korea did not have a well-trained army and a cadre of military generals. Many war heroes were outsiders and underdogs. Deeply entrenched in Confucian orthodoxy and dependency on Ming China, Joseon did not care to maintain a functioning military. There was no way Joseon Korea could win the war alone.

Arriving at the Southeastern port city of Busan in May 1592, the Japanese army took the entire Southeastern province in a week, and the king of Joseon fled from Seoul in 2 weeks from the invasion. In 2 weeks from that, Japan took control of Seoul and the Northern city Pyongyang.

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However, the war went into a stalemate because of the three factors:

(a) Ming China's help (Wanli Emperor). China sent a small army in August, and a large one in the following year

  • Keeping it short because this part is not so much discussed in Korea...

(b) Admiral Yi Sun-sin's 23 unexpected naval victories and control of the Southern sea. Having no prior naval experience, Yi Sun-sin (a secondary naval commander back then in a Southwestern province of Korea) won unexpected victories at sea with ridiculously few resources and support. He remained undefeated until his death. His victories at sea significantly disrupted the supply lines of Japan.

  • In the beginning of the war, he found himself in a situation where all the other commanders were killed or fleeing, and many coastal villages were pillaged and abandoned. His soldiers began to flee too, but he arrested and beheaded the escapees, and displayed their heads for discipline. By July, his fleet was comprised of 24 warships, 15 small warships, and 46 fishing boats.
  • Japan was paying all their attention to the Northern front, and the Japanese navy in the Southern sea was just sailing along the coastline, busying themselves with looting and raping
    • Yi exchanged fires with some unexpecting Japanese ships in small battles, and identified their strengths and weaknesses. For example, the Korean warships were speedier and had a long artillery range, but the Japanese ships were big, carried many soldiers, and the soldiers had strength in on-board combats with their guns and battlefield experiences. Realizing that, Yi built the famous turtle ships with a roof covered in iron spikes (to prevent enemies' boarding)
    • He typically used a tactic of luring the Japanese fleet with a small, speedy Korean ship, and encircling the fleet with the Korean warships with long artillery ranges. He also later mastered the use of the sea currents, straits and knowledge of the sea
    • Battle of Hansan Island: using a strait, "crane wing formation" and turtle ships, he destroyed 59 Japanese ships and captured 12, while not losing a single Korean ship. After this and another battle, Yi was promoted to the Naval Commander of the Three Provinces
  • However, the hero was not properly acknowledged and welcomed by the king of Joseon. Framed by a double agent's plot, he was beaten and tortured by the order of his king almost to death. He was replaced by incompetent Won Gyun and was demoted to the rank of an infantry soldier
    • In a disastrous battle led by Won Gyun, the Korean fleet of 150 warships that Yi had been carefully building were destroyed; only 13 warships survived
  • After the disaster, the king and court officials hurriedly pardoned and reinstated Yi as the Naval Commander. While recovering from the torture by the king, Yi led another legendary battle with his 13 surviving ships defeating the Japanese fleet of 333 ships, destroying 31 of them, without losing a single Korean ship. (Battle of Myeongnyang)
  • Sadly, the hero died in the last naval battle in this war, in which Korea won an absolute victory and destroyed half of a large Japanese fleet of 500 ships. He was fatally shot while commanding on the deck. He famously uttered to his son and his nephew:
    • "Do not announce my death" because the war was at its height. For the remainder of the battle, his nephew wore his armor and continued to beat the war drum

** A lot of details of his life and his thought processes are described in his meticulous war diary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjung_ilgi)

** Nakan-eupseong is one of the coastal villages that might preserve the appearance of the coastal villages at the time of this war.

** Yi Sun-shin is also known for his battlefield use of folk traditions. Take a look at how he used Ganggangsullae (ancient circle dance of women) and Kites in battles

** Now, a big statue of Yi Sun-sin is standing in a central plaza of Seoul, Gwanghwamun plaza

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(c) Guerilla warfare

  • Grand Master Seosan and Grand Master Samyeong are two famous Buddhist monks who led guerrilla wars against the Japanese force. They left a lot of folklore about their divine power to change the weather, etc. After the war, Samyeong was sent to Japan as an envoy, and rescued thousands of Koreans who had been taken prisoner.
  • Gwon Yul and Gwak Jae-woo are two famous general/guerilla leaders from the scholarly class. Gwon Yul is known for his Battle of Haengju, where he defeated 30,000 Japanese soldiers with his 2,800 Korean troops
  • Nongae was a gisaeng (courtesan), who killed a Japanese general by falling off a cliff with him (uhh... in a kind of Squid Game way in retrospect)

** I later heard that Japan was puzzled about why the peasants and defeated villages in Korea still resisted so much, because the Japanese peasants would just submit to a new ruler. But to ethnic Koreans, Japan was a completely foreign land and culture after 1,000 years of separation (plus Koreans had dismissed them as "dwarfs" "savages" "pirates" for a long time). Koreans also viewed the Japanese samurai-style atrocities as barbaric and horrendous. This all contributed to anti-Japan patriotism

The Japanese ultimately ended the war in 1598 after the death of the shogun, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and returned to Japan.

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[the legacy of the war]

  • Devastation of the economy - famine, epidemics, and poverty combined with the Little Ice Age in the 17th century
  • Atrocities: the Japanese violence was so gory and brutal, Koreans viewed them as "monsters" and "ghosts." A famous story is that the Japanese sliced the noses of killed soldiers and civilians as war trophies, and were rewarded based on the nose-count. This story is true, and there's still a monument called Ear Mound in Japan that enshrines the severed noses of 38,000 Koreans and 30,000 Chinese. The original name was Nose Mound, but it would later be changed to Ear Mound, because the Japanese thought that Nose Mound sounded too horrible
  • In the midst of the massacres and plunders, the Japanese kept Korean ceramic artisans alive and took them to Japan. It is said that the ceramic technology was "stolen" - but according to some records, some artisans would not want to return to Joseon Korea because artisans and craftsmen were better treated in Japan (which had a thriving market economy) vs. Korea (Confucian orthodox)
  • Crops of the Americas
    • In terms of the material culture, something very interesting happened -- during the war, chili peppers and tobacco were introduced to the Korean peninsula (via Japan via the Portuguese) even though Koreans had no idea about the origin of the crops. Some ethnic Koreans were captured and sold as slaves by the Portuguese merchants, far and away
      • the spicy kimchi as we know now evolved after this point. Before the chili peppers, kimchi was white and not spicy
    • Tobacco was quickly popularized after the war. Interestingly, "smoking tiger" became a common motif in Korean folk traditions. (link for a folk painting) A Korean equivalent of "long, long time ago" is "In a time when tigers used to smoke"
  • Ming China's fall
    • I heard that this war partially accelerated the decline of the Ming Empire, which would soon conquered by the Manchu (Jurchen)-led Qing

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11. Manchu Qing rises; a pragmatic king of Joseon gets dethroned by a conservative neo-Confucian faction

  • While the king Seonjo was hiding from the war, one of his sons, Gwanghae, stayed during the war, set up a branch court, and fought battles. He succeeded his father as the next king. He led quite nice domestic reforms to reconstruct the economy after the devastation. For example
    • Redistributed land to people
    • Daedong law - collecting taxes only in rice. This would make it easier for people to pay taxes
    • Hopae ID - made people to carry an ID called hopae so that the state can track its (taxable) population again (after many villages were abandoned and emptied)
    • Compiling a medical book (led by a royal chief physician)
  • Despite this, he was largely unsupported by many politicians, scholars, and aristocrats because he was not the first-born son and he was born from a concubine.
    • Writing this, at this point I feel personally irritated lol. Why weren't all these fundies killed by Japan
  • He lost support for two reasons (1) Gwanghae had a young half-brother born from a legitimate queen. It is commonly thought that Gwanghae didn't want to kill him, but the faction that supported him did. The young boy was eventually sent into exile and executed
    • It seems that The mother of the killed young boy firmly believed that the king actively persecuted her son... her court maiden wrote an extensive diary about this event. It was written in the Korean script, which was widely used among women and commoners at this point
  • (2) The Imjin war accelerated the decline of Ming China (Han Chinese), and Manchu Qing Empire was rising in power. Gwanghae was a practical ruler, and he tried to maintain friendly relationships with the Manchus. This upset Ming and the dogmatic Confucian scholars in Korea.
    • Gwanghae was still forced to send a troop to Manchuria to help the Ming dynasty. Joseon lost 2/3 of their troop in this doomed military operation
  • Ultimately, a "ultra-conservative" political faction that opposed to him made a coup, and dethroned the king
    • He's often considered a victim of the crazy faction fighting that was worsening since the Phase 2.

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12. Qing Invasion (The Byeongja war): the King of Joseon surrenders and gives nine bows to the Manchu Emperor

  • Joseon politics was a mess. After the coup, a new king Injo was enthroned, but one of the coup members was dissatisfied with his reward, made another coup, and occupied Seoul. The economy was still devastated and an external threat (Manchu) was growing, but the aristocrats were only obsessed with court infighting.
  • The ultra-conservative faction that took power abandoned pragmatism, and antagonized Manchu ("because they're barbarians")
    • Manchu was a new name for Jurchen, a nomadic group in Manchuria (right north of the Korean peninsula) that had long interacted with Koreans. Koreans always had despised them as barbarians
    • But Manchus didn't hate Joseon Korea. They even shared a holy mountain
  • However, the conservative Joseon nobles eventually upset the rising Manchu empire. Qing eventually invaded Korea (it was before Qing conquered the entire China), and drove the fleeing king of Joseon into Namhan Mountain Fortress. Qing brought 100,000 soldiers - while Joseon could mobilize only a few thousands from its devastated economy
  • In a siege, running out of food and supplies, the king of Joseon finally surrendered, and ceremoniously bowed to the Qing Emperor nine times. Joseon became Qing's vassal state, and the first and second sons of the Joseon king would be sent to China as captives

** A general Im Gyeongeop beheaded one of the Manchu generals, and later went to China to help restore the Ming Empire

  • many people of Joseon thought that it was virtuous to be loyal to Ming, the legitimate preserver of Confucianism. Im is still enshrined in some shamanic shrines in Korea

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To be continued!

987

Comments

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Bashstash01 t1_itexnz5 wrote

Why didn’t the people get mad or revolt when the economy was in shambles and the aristocrats didn’t do anything? I would expect something like the French Revolution or the Yellow Turban Rebellion. This question is coming from the first part of Section 12.

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spinnybingle OP t1_itezrk3 wrote

Good question -- some Korean historians ask that question to themselves, I guess. I don't have an answer, but major peasant rebellions (yellow turban or taiping style) would happen in the 19th century

In the 17th century... right after the war... umm perhaps peasants were just way too starved and devastated to do anything. After the war with Japan, there was a major epidemic that further plagued the nation. Seeing dead people or even families on the street was common. Afaik, both French Revolution or Yellow Turban happened when the economy and communities were relatively healthier

Plus, there was little merchant class because of the suppression of trades. And aristocrats were very heavily controlled by the fundamentalist Confucian ideology to be loyal to the king, and they had substantial ideological control over peasants through provincial, village-level institutions.

After the war with Japan, in late Joseon, oppression on women would also exacerbate. So perhaps the village societies chose to enhance social control rather than revolt

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El_Serpiente_Roja t1_itg3pbb wrote

Kingdom on Netflix is about zombies during the Joeson era and it's amazing.

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TheFunkyM t1_itgn8nu wrote

I've just started watching this recently and yes, so far it's been thoroughly good.

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MarkedPuberty t1_itg73iz wrote

The Manchus have a pretty complicated history. Many of the Mughal/Jurchen tribes were originally Goguryeo vassals, but they were displaced after Silla united Korea and then the newly formed state of Balhae fell to Liao and most of the various Jurchen tribes ended up becaming tributaries to both Liao and Goryeo.

Back then, it wasn't only Koreans that discriminated the Jurchen either, but Mongols/Chinese as well. The Jurchen civilization was originally at the time completely dominated and enslaved by the Khitans which formed the aforementioned Mongol/Chinese Liao empire. Before the Jurchens overthrew the Khitan, they even had a custom where married Jurchen women and Jurchen virgin girls were regularly raped by Liao Khitan envoys as they pleased.

Koreans never treated the Jurchens like this, but the Jurchens were seen just as barbaric as the Liao by Koreans because many of them were living as bandits and pirates harassing Korean communities that lived near their borders or on coasts. The Jurchens didn't raid only Goryeo either. For example in 1019, there was even a recorded case of Jurchen pirates raiding coastal Japanese villages, killing all the men, and enslaving many Japanese women as well.

At the time Khitan-Goryeo tensions were also flared up drastically and Liao ended up invading Goryeo, but they eventually ended up signing a peace treaty with Goryeo after their invading force was killed.

Then due to the shift the Jurchens managed to overthrow their rulers and turn the Mongols into their vassals after about a century, forming the Jurchen Jin dynasty which ruled most of northern China until eventually being defeated by the new Mongol overlord Temujin(Genghis Khan) who united a large number of nomadic tribes and invaded China.

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Zekachu9117 t1_itg096h wrote

Oh wow, Yi Soon Shin beheading fleeing soldiers and putting their heads up for display is not a part I ever heard about till now. I guess most koreans don't talk about that part since it doesn't fit into the whole "hero" narrative.

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TheFunkyM t1_itgn0te wrote

> I guess most koreans don't talk about that part since it doesn't fit into the whole "hero" narrative.

I mean, it was both far from unusual for the period and achieved what it needed to, in helping to give Yi Sun-sin the army he needed to save his country.

Like if this upsets you don't check out the shit Richard the Lionheart got up to.

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yisoonshin t1_iti9da2 wrote

Yeah, it's not unexpected whatsoever. I'd actually be pretty surprised if he managed to enforce discipline without harsh punishments for those kinds of crimes, particularly in the face of an enemy like the Japanese samurai. I think it's not mentioned more to avoid upsetting modern sensibilities, or perhaps it's just so normal for the time period people don't really pay attention to it. It's said that he would personally fulfill some of his soldiers dying wishes so it's not like he only wielded the stick, he also offered the carrot. Actually, I've read parts of his war diaries and he was a pretty sensitive man for the time period, very upright and disciplined but also soft when it came to his family and whatnot. It's no wonder he's remained an icon for Koreans all this time (including me).

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Zekachu9117 t1_itj95hu wrote

I agree that this would upset modern sensibilities. It's not the kind of thing shown in a lot of dramas, stories, and videos about the Admiral.

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Zekachu9117 t1_itj8xbo wrote

Doesn't upset me at all, I'm just surprised it took me this long to hear about it.

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apocalypse_later_ t1_itgj1gb wrote

Honestly though, from a purely military point of view- it was either that or your culture and society goes extinct.

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NoYgrittesOlly t1_itg968o wrote

>Despite this, he was largely unsupported by many politicians, scholars, and aristocrats because he was not the first-born son and he was born from a concubine.

>Gwanghae had a young half-brother born from a legitimate queen.

I thought the courtly intrigue of the Kingdom series was completely fictionalized. That’s shocking to me that the series’ plot had actual precedent in Korean history. Had never even heard of the Jurchen either before watching. Makes me appreciate it that much more! Thank you for your work. I really enjoyed it!

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FenderGuitarsRock t1_itg94yv wrote

This has been a good read .

I recently saw the movie _ The Swordsman ( 2020 ) supposedly based on true historical events and had many questions about Korea Joseon . I had no idea Korea had this sort of background / culture . In truth , I guess I never gave it much thought .

Thanks for posting .

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Reddituser45005 t1_itgljdp wrote

Thanks for this. You have developed an excellent set of resources for studying this period

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xtremzero t1_itj1py4 wrote

It’s probably worth mentioning also, that Joseon was heavily integrated into the Chinese tributary system and considered itself more or less a vassal to the Chinese emperor.

Relevance:

  1. The name Joseon was a choice of two names (Joseon and Honin 화령(和寧) )presented by Taejo Yi Seong-gye to the Hongwu emperor of China who chose it (東夷之號, 惟朝鮮之稱美, 且其來遠, 可以本其名而祖之. 體天牧民, 永昌後嗣)

  2. The king of Joseon wore clothes similar to the level of Prince in Ming, and the Mianguan the king wears during ceremonies have 9 strands as oppose to 12 strands(emperor). Similarly all of the officials clothing is the same as those of Ming dynasty

  3. The Kings of Joseon are not officially king until emissaries from the emperor confirms them to be. This is why Taejo were never officially king but instead “manager of the affairs of Joseon”(朝鲜国权知国事) as the Hongwu Emperor considered him a usurper

  4. This is why Wanli emperor decided to help Joseon against the Japanese invasion and why Gwanghaegun was overthrown as he refused to help Ming fight against the Manchus

  5. Joseon uses the same era name as Ming emperor and the first two letters of Joseon kings Posthumous name are given by Ming (and Joseon adds a bunch more)

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spinnybingle OP t1_itj66ip wrote

I hope someone else can check if each bullet point is true (unbiased) or not. Assuming that most of what you said is true,

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>In 1802, Nguyễn Phúc Ánh (who later became Emperor Gia Long) established the Nguyễn dynasty. In the second year of his rule, he asked the Jiaqing Emperor of the Qing dynasty to confer on him the title 'King of Nam Việt / Nanyue' (南越 in Chinese character) after seizing power in Annam. The Emperor refused because the name was related to Zhao Tuo's Nanyue, which included the regions of Guangxi and Guangdong in southern China. The Qing Emperor, therefore, decided to call the area "Việt Nam" instead

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it seems that the pre-modern relationship between Joseon and China you described is not different from the pre-modern relationship between Vietnam and China.

You seem to be a Chinese person. What reaction would you expect when you shout "Vietnam was a Chinese vassal state"?

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xtremzero t1_itj9nlv wrote

I’m merely stating facts and it has nothing to do with my nationality. I think people need to remember that China today has nothing to do with Ming Dynasty nor Qing. The rise of nationalism in countries such as Vietnam and Korea has lead to a lot of history denying/revisionism, it’s like French denying to be ever part of the Roman Empire because they are salty and don’t want to be associated with Italians. Chinese today to Ming is like Italians to Romans.

All of the points can be verified in Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty, as well as related historic records in Chinese.

Joseon and Vietnam were a bit different. Vietnam has historically been part of the Chinese dynasty through direct rule. Vietnam became initially independent in 938AD, and have defeated Chinese armies at various points later. Due to its location the ruler of Vietnam have always considered themselves to be emperors interiorly, only calling themselves king when communicating with china. Joseon kings have never claimed to be emperor up until the point where they were annexed by Japan. Again, all can be easily verified by looking at the veritable records. Albeit it’s easier for me as most of the records and historic texts in both korea and vietn were written in Chinese characters.

Tldr: I don’t care about reactions from “the international community” as history is fact not bed time stories that can be changed just because someone is unhappy. That is called revisionism.

Nor I am implying Joseon being tributary state /vassal to Ming means Korea today is related to China today. Also, Vassals in sinosphere is completely different to the vassals in medieval history.

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spinnybingle OP t1_itjdkra wrote

Few Koreans deny that there was a hierarchical international order between China and its neighbors in the pre modern time, and kings of Korea (as well as Vietnam and other similar countries) agreed to endorse the symbolic authority of Chinese empires.

They typically are cautious to emphasize that because of its obvious potential of being misused for Chinese expansionist agenda.

Plus I don’t think “revisionism” is a good word here because it has a connotation of a former aggressor/perpetrator of atrocities denying its past. Korea considers itself as a smaller nation that needs to be defended

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xtremzero t1_itjk3ka wrote

I agree there are a lot of Chinese nationalists who wants to claim that everything touched by Sinosphere of influence and confucianism belongs to modern day China which is obviously bs.

However, this still doesn’t change the fact that Joseon dynasty (at least the ruling caste) was very close to the Ming dynasty as they considered themselves to be part of the chinese culture sphere (again, nothing to do with china today). This connection is much to some korean nationalists’ dismay which leads them to change history and portray the Joseon-Ming relationship as some sort of mutual alliance etc.

Examples include Joseon officials strongly opposing Hangul as “only barbarians invent their own language” .

King Seonjo even suggested he would rather “die in the lands of the emperor rather than die at the hands of japanese bandits”

https://sillok.history.go.kr/id/wna_12506013_007

imo korea and japan preserved more Chinese culture than the entire China combined (especially after the communist takeover).

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spinnybingle OP t1_itjpgky wrote

Almost any Korean person knows that kings of Joseon were referred to as "king" while Chinese emperors were referred to as "emperors," and there was a strong symbolic hierarchy. Well Koreans can be quite nationalistic, but I don't think anyone will really deny that.

Imo Joseon-Ming tie was particularly strong because the Joseon ruling class followed very orthodox Confucianism, often following the social norms described in Chinese classical text to a letter. Many modern people are critical of that because it obviously weakened the nation (e.g. the suppression of commerce and trades). It was also the way the nobles distinguished themselves from commoners who weren't educated in classical Chinese

Almost any Korean person also knows that Hangeul was despised by noblemen in the Joseon era. So it's not a secret or taboo topic in Korea.

  • Plus, despite ignored by male aristocrats, the Korean script was widely used by women and commoners, which led to the rise of vernacular literature. We know a lot more about the Joseon era thanks to the vast amount of scripts written in vernacular Korean

However, when one says Korea (or Vietnam or others) was "tributary state" or "vassal state" of China, while it's basically true, there can still be contentions about to which extent it was symbolic and to which extent it was substantial. Joseon Korea didn't have to pay a lot of "substantial" tributes to China.

  • Joseon had to pay tributes to Ming just once every three years
  • The contents were Just dozens of kilograms of ginseng and similar amount of hemp, mats, paper, ink, etc. It can almost be seen as an expensive gift, rather than tax
  • There were very few exchanges of people/talents/human resources
  • Some tributary states were even benefited by the tributary relationship because some Chinese emperors doled out gold
  • The tributary states were sometimes asked to join military operations of China, but at least in the case of Joseon, it was very few and far between. Ming China only lasted for like 250 years anyways
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributary_system_of_China
  • (https://ijkh.khistory.org/journal/view.php?doi=10.22372/ijkh.2021.26.2.151) .

So there can be contentions about how "symbolic" or "substantial" the tributary relationships were.

I think it's a dispute that can only be resolved by collaboration of professional historians in different countries

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xtremzero t1_itjrfe7 wrote

The so called tributes are actually trade in disguise. And a quite unfair one at that (for Ming)

All the tributaries LOVED coming to China, because not only is all the expenses covered, they also get way more gifts in return (you bring a few apples or oranges call it “specialty” but get gold in return)

The rules where Joseon tributes can only come once every 3 years was so that Ming doesn’t go bankrupt. But even then there are records of Joseon emissaries bringing tributes (and getting gold in return) every year. Ryukyu was supposed to come every 2 years but came multiple times a year.

So tributes sounds great but was actually like a charity event. Hence why even countries in Indonesia and Malaysia loved going to China to do “tributes”

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wolflance1 t1_ityr7cz wrote

>which extent it was symbolic and to which extent it was substantial.

Oh it's far more than symbolic. Something as trivial as using the wrong calendar format can cause Joseon government to outright shut down because it offended Ming sensibilities.

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UrTheReasonBidenWon t1_itg8b41 wrote

Only tangentially related, but if you like Korean history and zombie stuff, you should check out Kingdom on Netflix. It’s set in 1500s Korea. The Korean king has only one son who he had with a concubine, so that son is the heir but as a bastard it is a tenuous position. The king’s wife is pregnant though, so while his adult son is currently the heir, the new child may replace him as the heir, and the queen’s family is power hungry and wants this very much. But then the king dies before the birth, so the queen’s family comes up with a plan. They know a physician who can turn the king into a zombie. Then they will tell a few witnesses that he is alive but sick until the baby is born so that the baby can become the new heir. But of course it goes wrong and leads to a zombie outbreak across Korea. So it’s a zombie apocalypse before contemporary weaponry with lots of palace intrigue thrown in. Here is a trailer

If you go into the settings on Netflix you can watch it either with subtitles or dubbed.

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rockmuelleri t1_itj4qoj wrote

For someone who has interest in Byeongja war(War between Joseon-Qing), I recommend to watch The Fortress (2017). Not like usual Korean history movies which focus on patriotism, this movie portrays one of the most humiliating Korean history calmly.

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Jestersage t1_itfljnp wrote

In terms of studying the Qing Dynasty - especially in terms of non-China territorial action, at what point should it be consider as actions of Manchu, vs action of Qing China?

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Bashstash01 t1_itnvrwy wrote

The Qing were also known as the Manchu dynasty, because they were led by Manchu.

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Jestersage t1_ito0ljl wrote

Yes, I know about that. However, Manchu was its own nation, as with Ming China until Qing, where Manchu took over the Chinese government.

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wolflance1 t1_itr5p0b wrote

While a hero, Yi as a person and his naval campaign are a lot more nuanced than what is commonly taught.

Yi Sun Sin actually had a huge fleet in comparison to the Japanese during the first invasion, because not only he had his own fleet, he was also joined by Won Gyun's fleet and Yi Eokgi's fleet. Most of his campaign should be properly recognized as a joint operation of several Joseon fleets led by several admirals of equal rank.

(Dispite what Jingbirok claimed about Won Gyun, he actually spent the majority of the time during the First Invasion fighting the Japanese together with Yi—political slandering and character assassination at the time went both ways. Yi Sun-sin's exoneration as a hero comes at the expense of Won Gyun's reputation).

Yi's naval campaign also wasn't just a string of victories after victories. He actually had his share of defeats, especially towards the later part of the First Invasion after Japanese adapted to his tactics. There is even one case of Yi making false report claiming victory yet vented frustration in his personal diary.

Yi's lack of results during the later part of First Invasion contributed to Joseon king/court losing patience with him. The so-called "double agent plot" was only the last straw broke the camel's back, and the "double agent" part was almost certainly just a face-saving excuse. Japanese invaders at the time barely knew any Korean language, there's no way they could understand the intricasies of Joseon court politics to pull off such trick. It's far more likely that Konishi Yukinaga GENUINELY wanted to backstab Kato Kiyomasa through Korean hands, as he later tried it again (and almost succeed) during the negotiation.

Likewise, Battle of Myeongang was indeed legendary, but in the end Japanese still had hundres of ship, while Yi only had 13. What happened after the battle wasn't pretty. Also, Japanese had 130 ships, not 300.

Also, Battle of Noryang was led by Ming admiral Chen Lin. Yi advised him and controlled the Korean part of the coalition fleet, but Chen Lin was the commander and had the final authority , so credit/merit should be his.

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Tokishi7 t1_itfhhzf wrote

Korean history is basically how can we screw over the nation further and further. Hell, the first king of Joseon basically sealed the deal on Korea’s future as a small “island” country just so he could be king and then was shorty replaced. Korea has one of the most unstable histories I’ve ever read about. Just constant back stabbing. A great analysis tho and great read.

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spinnybingle OP t1_itfj2az wrote

Well

  1. I agree that Joseon history can be read as a sort of downward spiral - it gets worse in the 19th century
  2. It was not necessarily as dark in the three kingdoms, Unified Silla and Goryeo period. I think it was the Mongol invasion in the 13th century that crucially influenced the fate of Korea and neighboring Japan. Goryeo (Korea) fiercely fought Mongols, relocating the whole population of the capital to an island, but got eventually devastated. Japan stayed intact. I often think that this is comparable to the fate of Persia and some part of the Islamic world in the Mongol invasion.
  3. After 100 years of Mongol dominance, Korean aristocrats became completely conservative and fundamentalist (in Confucianism). A similar trend also happened in Ming China but it was more extreme in Korea. It was not that the first king of Joseon sealed the deal on Korea's future, it was the collective of the aristocrats who completely turned fundamentalist Confucianist. Many Joseon kings were personally stifled, and resisted the orthodoxy, especially in the early period. But the orthodoxy would become even more dominant
  • A similar trend of ultra-conservative orthodoxy also happened in Vietnam though, so I don't think it's just the case of Korea. Spain is another example that "sealed the deal" on their country's future when it was caught in the religious craze and kicked out all the Protestants and Jews
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DiploJ t1_iti93gv wrote

Confucianism as practiced in Joseon was a tool of political control and financial enrichment of the nobility (yangban). As with most cultures, religion, for good or bad, has always been used for control and power consolidation.

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Tokishi7 t1_itfn0c4 wrote

I’m mostly just talking about how korean history is just how can we screw over the nation to put our family into power only for another family to do the same a few years later. Despite Joseph’s length, I would go to say that pre Joseon was much more successful. Koreans really don’t like it when you point out one of the reasons that japan walked in so easily in the late 1800s as well.

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Algaean t1_itfnowo wrote

If it makes you feel better, Hungarian history is one long "how can i cut off my nose to spite your face" episode.

Seriously, the national sport of national government is how to shoot the nation in the foot.

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Tokishi7 t1_itfnzv1 wrote

It’s just disappointing in Korea’s case and rather ironic with the nationalism here. Living here feels like we haven’t come much further since

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DiploJ t1_iti9kft wrote

Ancient Korea had so much potential, but internal political jousts and extreme lusts for power was their bane, especially in the Joseon era. Instability was why they couldn't be any greater.

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daemonshrike t1_itjome1 wrote

What kind of potential do you mean?

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DiploJ t1_itjpew1 wrote

They had what it takes to become a military and political powerhouse but didn't apply themselves. They were vassals of others for so long.

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Tokishi7 t1_itiuxf4 wrote

Can’t say we’ve come much further living here…It’s rather cut throat these days as well unfortunately

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dually t1_itj8uqr wrote

Nationalism is the enlightened idea that nation-states are preferable to feudal heirarchies and dynastic empires.

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ku2000 t1_ithgkxn wrote

So... Lots to unpack here. A nation that lasted for 500 years does not have an unstable history. Have you seen China and Japan for those 500 years??? Constant backstabbing is human nature. One of the things that Korea got right was documentation. There is a reason you know every detail of political dynamics. It's more of a survivorship bias where a stable country with more documentation seems like there is more chaos.

Not saying it was a good country, but the stability was there. It wasn't a rich country by any means and the aristocrats were shitty. In the end the stuck up Royals fucked up the country by inviting the Japanese to deal with the Peasant uprising. Still boils my blood thinking about that from time to time. Even tho that was 130 years ago.

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spinnybingle OP t1_itiogja wrote

While I largely agree with you,

>In the end the stuck up Royals fucked up the country by inviting the Japanese to deal with the Peasant uprising

There's a lot to unpack here too... I wrote a very long piece about this period which I'll post later. Actually the one who was the most anti-Japanese was Queen Myeongseong (commonly called "Empress Myeongseong" but I think that's a bit inflated title), who was the most influential politician in Joseon court back then. Her role and personality in that period is vastly underevaluated by later Korean historians, perhaps because of Confucianism-influenced gender bias.

She was consistently anti-Japan perhaps because she knew that Japan would be the biggest geopolitical threat to Korea. That's why she first allied with Qing China, and as soon as Qing lost the Sino-Japanese war, she immediately moved to ally with Russians. That was the point Japan decided to murder her (unnecessarily violently).

  • Both Qing and Japan intervened the peasant uprising, and the queen was pro-Qing and some aristocratic faction was pro-Japan. This was the major cause of the Sino-Japanese war in which Japan defeated China. Right after this the queen tried to ally with Russians, the Japanese murdered her and had the Russian diplomats literally see her mutilated body as a warning. I think the symbolic and political significance (and the level of violence) of this event is not as much discussed as it needs.

King Gojong, who was her supportive husband (and the one who benefited the most from her political shrewdness), had been personally quite friendly with the emerging pro-Japan faction among the aristocracy. However, after having to let his wife violently murdered by the Japanese, he got deeply depressed, and after a few months he suddenly moved his residence into the Russian embassy, and kicked out all the major members of the pro-Japan faction.

So the Korean royalty pretty much resisted Japan's influence. There were quite many pro-Japan aristocrats but they lost influence after the queen's murder. It was when Russia was defeated by Japan (1905) that Korea couldn't resist the Imperial Japan's power anymore. Right after Japan won the Russo-Japanese war, the Japanese army encircled the Korean palace, and Japanese prime minister (or its equivalent - Ito Hirobumi) walked into the Korean palace and made the Joseon court sign a protectorate treaty (Eulsa treaty). King refused to sign it himself, but some of the court high officials did. That was the de facto end of Korea as an independent political entity.

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gooverofme1 t1_itj4n9g wrote

Seems like normal amount of "back stabbing". I guess you have not opened many other history books then

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Tokishi7 t1_itj7aon wrote

Could be normal, but the severity of it has left the peninsula crippled throughout its history to modern times.

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