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zhivago6 t1_j71xwq0 wrote

Reply to comment by AugustWolf22 in Battle site of 'Great Revolt' recorded on Rosetta Stone unearthed in Egypt by AugustWolf22

The Great Thebaid Revolt is one of the most important events in history and one of the least known. Native Egyptians named a Pharoah and fought to take the nation from the Greeks, seizing half the country in over 2 decades of war. There are temples with inscriptions naming the new liberator of Egypt. During the revolt the Ptolomaic pharoahs borrowed more and more money from the rising power of Rome who defeated Carthage during this time. The Selucids and Macedonia seized the Levant and Cypress from the Ptolomeys, but Rome warned both kingdoms not to move into Egypt itself or they would risk war with Rome.

All the assistance that Egypt got from Rome cemented a relationship that barely existed before and the Romans sent ambassadors and possibly advisors to Egypt for the first time. The revolt also fundamentally changed key aspects of Egyptian government and culture. Prior to the Great Thebaid Revolt taxes were collected by the priests in temples, but because many temples sided with the Native Egyptians, the Ptolomeys completely changed the method of collecting taxes. This in turn dramatically reduced the influence and power of temples and subsequently the Ancient Egyptian religion.

The defeated warriors were often executed, their entire families sold into slavery, and their property seized. Many temples also lost their land allotments and without the taxes many could not be funded and shut down. Eventually Egypt would be the main driver of economic growth for the entire Roman Empire and that all started because of the revolt.

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FallenFamilyTree t1_j72c3ak wrote

Fascinating! Just the level of detail, and analysis/commentary I wish Wikipedia had more often. Just a shame I can't find a Wikipedia for this event (maybe someone should make one!).

To fill in a few details, it sounds like Egypt was effectively a Greek state post-Alexander the Great, run by the Ptolemaic Pharaoh's. The native Egyptians in Thebaid ("Upper Egypt", ironically now in the south of modern Egypt) rose up in rebellion, against their Greek rulers and managed to take control of most of the Egyptian state under their own Pharaoh. Thanks in part to the backing of the Roman Republic, the Ptolemaic Pharaoh's survived the revolt - I'm assuming as much as it is called a revolt and not a revolution. What was the opposition Pharaoh called and do we have more details about what happened?

Edit: I did some research and I'm presuming the "Egyptian Revolt (206BC - 185BC)" was led by Hornwennefer (and subsequently Ankhwennerfer) against the Pharaoh Ptolemy V.

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zhivago6 t1_j72pmrq wrote

The entire story is amazing. It really begins with the Battle of Rafa between the Selucids and Ptolomeys. The Selucids brought Indian elephants to battle and the Egyptians brought African elephants. The African elephants were freaked out but the Egyptians won anyway. Part of the reason they won is because for the first time since the Greeks ruled Egypt they allowed native Egyptians into the army. One theory is that these native Egyptians realized that killing Greeks wasn't that hard and this may have led to the revolt.

After several years of war, Horwennefer and part of his army was besieged for months in a fortress, I think he was banking on a high Nile to bring relief of the siege, but eventually his army surrendered or the fort was stormed and he was executed. The Greek Pharoahs thought this was the end of it but his son had his own coronation and kept the war going even longer.

The son, Anhkwennefer, fought for a long time and at one point the rebels took cities in the Delta, or Northern Egypt. The Greeks suspected the Nubians of aiding Anhkwennefer and the rebels but I don't think that was ever confirmed. In the end the Greek Pharoah offered an amnesty if the remainig fighters surrendered, and when they did he had them tortured and executed, Anhkwennefer too.

Another important aspect of this conflict is the control of the Ptolomiac government. The Ptolomeys had lots of court intrigues. When the Greek Pharoah that was in charge when the revolt began died with only a single heir, his close advisors murdered the mother and other advisors so they could control the child Pharoah. This is the time when the Macedonian King and Selucid King attacked and siezed parts of the Egyptian Kingdom. There was even more drama when a Greek general used a public appearance by the child Pharoah to publicly accuse the killer advisors of killing the Pharoah's mother. He got a crowd worked up and they attacked the royal procession and killed the advisors. The general then took the young Pharoah under his wing.

I have wanted to write a book about this since 2017 but issues with the health of a family member take up so much time I never got back into it.

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FallenFamilyTree t1_j7394zn wrote

> I have wanted to write a book about this since 2017 but issues with the health of a family member take up so much time I never got back into it.

I would love to read this if you ever put it into writing of some sort!

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zhivago6 t1_j72dt2e wrote

There is little info on Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horwennefer

Most of the information about this I got from reading research papers. There are lots of things like the Rosetta Stone that reference the revolt, but the Ptolomeys wanted to destroy all evidence of it. They have found papyrus fragments that give us a little info, that's how we know about the families of the warriors being sold into slavery. There was one document that implied the Ptolomeys were concerned that Hannibal would join the rebels after the defeat of Carthage.

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midgetsinheaven t1_j72f5fc wrote

So fascinating! You know you could add what you've learned to Wikipedia. It's open for anyone to edit.

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zhivago6 t1_j72lj8m wrote

I created a very detailed timeline that included sources but it was online and the website is now dead, so I can't retrieve my work.

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rkincaid007 t1_j72s32w wrote

Not available using the way back machine? (Or whatever it’s called) Sounds like an interesting read

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ZippyDan t1_j72i0ge wrote

>The native Egyptians in Thebaid ("Upper Egypt", ironically now in the south of modern Egypt)

Isn't it Upper Egypt because the Nile flows "backwards" and this is upriver? Rivers generally flow "downward" based on elevation, so upper Egypt was the "higher" ground.

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Ferengi_Earwax t1_j7367vi wrote

The Nile river flows south to north originating from lake Victoria. It empties into the Mediterranean sea. The "upper Egypt" simply refers to the highlands( south) as opposed to the delta (flatlands, which are to the north). It originates from their originally being 2 Egyptian kingdoms. Lower egypt(delta, but now northern Egypt on the map) and upper Egypt (the highlands, now part of Southern Egypt on modern maps). The first dynasty and pharaohs United both kingdoms and is thought to be depicted in the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette

They essentially took both kingdoms logo and combined it into one crown you see most pharaohs wearing. https://www.ees.ac.uk/the-royal-crowns-of-egypt

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ZippyDan t1_j75gviq wrote

You just confirmed what I said...

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Ferengi_Earwax t1_j77fy8j wrote

I don't mean any insult but your comment wasn't very clear and might be confusing to some people so I decided to clarify it.

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No-Level-346 t1_j768bku wrote

You're not really answering the question. Why "ironically"?

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Ferengi_Earwax t1_j77gl9m wrote

I'm sorry what? I was just clarifying that guys comment for others who might be confused. And as for the irony? Who asked about irony anyway? If you're referring to why it's "ironic" that should be obvious via our comments

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