Submitted by Smol_Beanie_Boi t3_zxrb6h in headphones
Recently ordered a pair of AKG k712's upon recommendation. I've seen posts saying they need power but after checking the Calculator it seems like I might be able to drive them from my phone. Is this accurate or am I reading it wrong? Any insight is appreciated!
Apple dongle is fine, but for EQ a DC05 might be needed. A better amp than that is nice to have, but adds very little.
AKG K7xx lineup is kinda weird in how much power it needs. Based on my personal experience with K702, while it has a somewhat low impedance, it also has somewhat low sensitivity. With all of that, they need more power, than sennheiser hd600, and if that power is not met, they won't sound right.
When connecting them into my Fiio K5 pro i have to turn on hight gain and rotate the volume knob to 12 o'clock to get my usual listening volume, if i want to go "loud" i'l have to turn it all the way to 2-3 o'clock. Sennheiser hd600 are already loud at high gain, and i mostly use them on medium. K702 do sound absolutely fine, and nothing weird is going on with sound.
However, connecting them directly into my phone, or my old fiio ka1, they become a lot brighter than they're supposed to be. Getting volume is one thing, but getting the right sound is a whole different.
It might just me saying what i seen in a dream, but i think that this line of headphones has some weird drivers, which want not watts, but volts, which not all sources could give. They're also low impedance low sensitivity, wich, usually, makes headphones hard to drive. HD600 sound absolutely fine from my phone, but K702 i only use with BTR5 and K5, where thay sound the way they should.
Given that K712 and K702 are very similar, and the biggest difference that actually changes the sound signature is the memory foam pads, we might as well say that K712 will have the same behaviour.
You know what your phone’s headphone jack’s specs are?
I'm barely starting my headphone journey so sorry if I don't understand the terminology. This is what I've been able to find so far. It's a Samsung Galaxy s6
https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_s6-review-1227p7.php
It allegedly has a Wolfson DAC and a Maxim MAX98505 class DG audio amplifier
Ah I was worried about this honestly. I ordered them because of their reputation for good soundstage and imaging and I was on a budget. I guess I'll have to hear how they sound on my phone or on my laptop. Thanks!
Also while I'm here do you happen to have any recommendations for headphones under 300 USD? Or an amp for under 50? If not then thanks anyway! :)
Hmm interesting. I have a bit of a small budget so I guess I'll have to wait until they arrive. Thank you!
Yeah I've heard of the diminishing returns that can be experienced in this hobby. Thanks for the insight!
>With all of that, they need more power, than sennheiser hd600, and if that power is not met, they won't sound right.
They don't sound right nonetheless. The trick with all AKG owners is that they adapt to the sound of headphones in process of changing amplification and make conclusions that amp helps, which is a wrong conclusion (with ANY headphone).
Unfortunately that’s not really enough to go on. The only concrete detail a few minutes of internet sleuthing turned up suggests the headphone out is limited to less than 1Vrms, which is pretty low for these AKGs. So, probably less than ideal, but the extent to which that is the case is unclear, since there’s no good numbers for what its headphone out can do.
Yeah I couldn't find much other than an old thread from Head-fi. Guess I'll just have to wait until they show up tomorrow. Thanks!
Headphones do sound different if they're properly powered, you're not saying that this statement is wrong, do you?
I was using K702 with ka1 for about a month, after which i decided to buy K5 Pro, and i remember very well, that, suddenly, my headphones got a lot bassier, to the point that i wasn't shure if i liked it. Another thing with adaptation is that it doesn't work as well, when you're constantly using different headphones, and i do.
AKG headphones are quirky, but i just have to disagree with "They don't sound right nonetheless", as there are as many tastes as there are people, and there sure are people who like bright sound, like me. I will, however, try them with my phone later today, just in case that my memory is playing games with me.
I have AKG Q701 which are basically K712, I got an amp for them because of how many people said you need one. When it comes to power requirement, they don't need that much power, a phone or laptop should be enough. But when I use them with my amp, I can notice a small improvement in sound quality and soundstage, and I don't have a crazy amp, it was $40 on Amazon.
Oh I see. Which amp is it if you don't mind me asking? :)
>Headphones do sound different if they're properly powered, you're not saying that this statement is wrong, do you?
I do, because power has nothing to do with the sound quality, unless you don't have enough volume (because volume=power, and more volume is the only thing you get with more power). All my headphones sound the same from all my devices (RME, MOTU, Topping, FiiO, LG phone, Meizu phone, Realtek - I don't have obviously bad devices though).
AKG are shouty because of 2 khz and they sound thin because of obvious lack of bass. You can get used to it and use these headphones as a reliable tool for work, but it is not a right sound and it won't be right regardless the source you use. Doesn't mean they're bad - they're a decent instrument for studio.
If we're talking about open-backs, then AKG K702, which is my personal favourite, but they are bright and do require a good amp. Alternatively Sennheiser HD6xx is a killer deal, although I'd rather go for second hand HD600. Another good one is Beyerdynamic DT880, a little over budget, but second-hand would be ok. Audio-technica R70x has good reputation, but i haven't tried it, so i'm not shure about it. A little bit of a meme, but Koss ksc75, very cheap, amazing tonality. Good point of first contact, not that great compared to things above.
AKG K612 are as of note, they're very neutral and great piece overall, but i happen to not like it as much as K702. K712 are quite more expensive, have warm sound, and overall aren't to my liking.
Good closed-back headphones don't exist, as of my opinion. AKG K371 is decent, but i'm not a fan of harman target and combination of bass-boost and a 4Khz hole in upper-mids makes them OK as a headphone, while pretty good as closed back. If you're willing to get eq, dt770 could be ok, but i personally really don't like it.
Amps are harder, ~50$ isn't a lot, and i'm not aware of anything decent at that price. If you already bought K712, and looking to buy another pair of headphones with overall budget of 350$, i would rather go for ~150$ Fiio BTR5, BTR3 is an option, but i'd recommend going for 5 over 3, as it has more power, and a better choice in long run, not to metion that 5>3, so i's automatically better)
If you don't have any money currently, i would save for BTR5, to buy with or after headphones. Maybe someone else going through the comments will have more knowledge in that department, than i do.
Thank you so much for this! I'll definitely have to order these if the output from my phone doesn't sound good enough for me
Yeah it's a lot easier to find recommendations for open-backs so I just assumed they were the way to go but I think I might have to take a look at the 702's since they are cheaper and would open up my budget to get a better amp. Have you ever experienced issues with your AKG's? :)
As K702 cult member, they're mid-forward, i don't like the word "shouty", partly, because i like them because of that. Perhaps we see "right sound" a little differently - if "right" is dead-on the target, then yes, K702 are not "right", and i agree with that.
They're not neutral, but they are a great pair of headphones with good tonality overall, despite the 2Khz, and they're outright phenomenal for someone who likes that exact kind of sound, aka me. I tried quite a few headphones, not enough to say that i tried everything of note, but enough to form my personal taste in sound signatures.l, and yet i still love K702. I don't do any work, i just like to listen to music, and maybe in professional setting they're not that good, but they are very good for listening.
Now, since you said "AKG owners", which is basically saying that all akg headphones are weird, have you tried K612? If K702 are mid-forward, then K612 are very much neutral, given their price, i'd say that it'd be hard to call it anything but "great".
>and they sound thin, because of obvious lack of bass
They do roll off a little early, but they're nowhere near "thin", if anything, for an open-back, they have great bass extension, especially within its price. Could be that you're comparing to harman target? Well i'll say that harman target is bassy, one step away from being dirty. It's fun, but it's not to my liking, as i like my bass flat or rolling off.
As of curiosity, what would be a point of reference for what you've said? Maybe, just maybe, you're not giving k702 the power they need, rendering them thin and overly bright, exactly my experience with them before buying a good amp?
I haven't had any issues with mine, it's pretty young, since i bought it in August this year. They're not as well built as K712, if anything they feel cheap, but the sound is worth it.
I'm aware that some people had issues with right driver solder and i've seen a K701 demo unit with headband strings stretched to the point that they lost their use, but i would say that both of these problems are easily repairable. The headphone is not premium nor it has reputation of a durable one, but i would expect at least 2-3 years of perfect working order in caring hands.
As, again, they're bright, i'd recommend trying them before buying, and if you don't like them, return them while you can. I would first go for an amp, so that i won't have questions to the source, and then go for the headphones. It is very much to your personal preference, and if you don't like something it's absolutely is your right to, and the only way you'd know why some things are good and others aren't is experience.
I have K612 myself because out of all AKG K6/K7 series they were the most listenable by default and (funnily) they were the cheapest. Still they're bright, piercing and bass deficient by default, although no problems with upper mids, + that deficient bass is surprisingly good extended - K701/702 have less bass that's not extended at all.
>Could be that you're comparing to harman target?
Yes I do. I approve Harman target because that's how I understand the linearity of sound when I do a sine sweep, and that's the sweet spot where music is the most detailed and entertaining for me. K371 is not completely Harman neutral but it's close, and I prefer its sound over the whole AKG K6/K7 series. It's just not comfortable sadly because it's a closed back.
Harman is epic for everyday listening, and I would say it's great even for mixing. K6/K7 series is good for evaluating the cleaniness of the sound (is it artifact free? Does the space feel right?), otherwise they're not good both for critical listening and for professional work because they're very colored - bright and cold.
Yeah those issues made me hesitant at first but I know I'll be taking extra care of them considering the price. Unfortunately I've not found any place to try these headphones since most stores only seem to carry Sony, Bose and Beats. I ordered them through Amazon though so I think I'll have a good amount of time to test them and see if they are what I'm looking for. Thanks so much for all the help!
Well there we go, if we're taking harman over-ear target as the "right" sound, i absolutely agree with what you've said. K6/K7 line are thin and K371 is better than aforementioned. I do find it a little weird that you think that K612 are sharp, while i can agree that they're on the brighter side of neutral in terms of upper-mids and treble, probably your ears are more sensitive in these areas, then mine, that or i'm just a fan of bright sound.
But then i prefer IEF target. Again, harman is fun, but i simply don't like it. I'm not going to talk anything about professional work, as i do not have expertise in that, but for me, i do prefer not having that elevated bass, which harman has, and with that said, maybe you'll understand my point of saying that both K702 and K612 at least aren't thin, and at most are good headphones nonetheless.
Going back to the point of headphones changing sound with amplification, i don't have any other examples other than K702 of this effect. Again, I will check once i'll come home either confirming your point, or remaining of mine. I do think that Beyerdynamic T1 has same characteristics, but i'm saying that not off my experience, but rather off people saying things on internet.
K612 has multiple audible narrow peaks in treble that make the sound piercing - it's not about the whole treble being elevated, it's about these peaks. Fun story is - I have heard Beyer DT990 250 ohm, one of them. And the trick was - even though treble was obviously very elevated, I didn't find these headphones too piercing to my ears. Going through the sine generator helped to get the drill - I only got constant upsceding from 4 khz that never got into a dip or peak until 10 khz. This is a preferable thing for me - I'm OK about a bit elevated treble, I just dislike when treble has sharp peaks and dips.
As for the bass - I can't argue with Harman because all headphones by default sound bass deficient comparing to good near-field or far-field speakers with correctly tuned subwoofer, while Harman does not - it does the impression of speakers pretty much accurately. But AKG goes even further because they feel bass deficient comparing to even Sennheiser HD650 which are bass deficient too (though it's about extension there - no information under 100 hz).
Fun thing is - I can't call AKG being particularly detailed either, even though it should be the main point of having reduced ("tighter?") bass.
Well i guess i just comes down to personal preference after all. I do like my k702 in both tonality and detail, it's less of a "less bass=more detail", but rather "less bass = me more like it". I'm not very sure about K612, as i don't own them currently, but comparing K702 to HD600 both of which i have at hand right now, i would choose akg over senny, and i would choose them both far over K371 which i keep mostly because it's sometimes fun to stirr things up a bit.
Anyway, as i said, i did try using my K702 with both my amp and my phone. I admit, the difference is a lot less than i expected, i didn't notice much difference in neither bass nor mids. I did, however, notice difference in treble, from my phone (Redmi note 8) the treble is sharper. The problem with my methodology is that i am using different DACs while changing AMPs. I think, that the extra sharpness might be because of lost detail, as with K5 pro the treble is effortless, while with my phone it's... Clipping? Might be, i'm not shure, but it definitely results in an overall sharper sound.
So you were right, it does seem that amplification of headphones is all volume. I really want to try now my KA1, to finalise this, but it's broken, so better luck next time. Probably my experience after buying K5 was due to a better DAC in it, which resulted in less harshness.
>I think, that the extra sharpness might be because of lost detail
It may be because of high output impedance as well. But maybe yeah, it's a distortion.
I personally found Xiaomi phones to be problematic with software sound chains by default (effects, equalizers that you can't turn off, problems with gain, etc). So maybe DAC/Amp in your Redmi are not that bad, you just need custom firmware like Pixel Experience or something like that to keep software sound chain clean.
Had a K712 for over 2 years going through motherboard audio, an ASUS external soundcard, an E09k + Sanskrit stack and finally an A-GD NFB-11 and each pairing sounded markedly different.
I was (and still largely am) amp and DAC agnostic, but bought the NFB for more headroom to build out my collection at the time since the AKG was my first "proper headphone" and so imagine my surprise when it immediately made a clear difference to the attack and dynamics that I hadn't heard before.
All that is to say, yeah that's a very weird headphone. I've observed the same thing going back to it later, but not as clearly with almost any other headphone. Who knows what they did to that thing in design and production 🫠
If you don't like them at first, don't give up on them. They punch way above their weight class with some light EQ.
I finally got to try them out today and they soundn pretty great already!
ANIMATE1016 t1_j21vnjz wrote
I had a pair of those. You can power them off the phone but the really really shine with a amp.