Submitted by ICrySaI t3_zxemi0 in headphones
KARSbenicillin t1_j21jdv6 wrote
Reply to comment by wwt3 in I don't get the "frequency response graph" thing. by ICrySaI
It would be nice if you could provide some examples and elaborate on what you mean.
wwt3 t1_j21n5ac wrote
Most headphones behave as a minimum phase system… for some of their response range, but many popular headphones (audeze, hifiman, sennheiser etc) have large portions of nonlinear and non- minimum phase response within their operating range. It just bugs me that everyone screams minimum phase and few of them actually understand what it means and /or if it’s even true.
KARSbenicillin t1_j21vnz9 wrote
> for some of their response range, but many popular headphones (audeze, hifiman, sennheiser etc) have large portions of nonlinear and non- minimum phase response within their operating range.
Can you elaborate further? What makes it non-linear or non-minimum phase?
wwt3 t1_j21wo8n wrote
To simplify it a bit, I’ll explain an example vs the actual concept as it gets kinda messy. A consequence of being minimum phase is that: Amplitude and decay time are proportionate. / louder sounds take longer to decay than quieter sounds, and the relationship between these two is constant. Areas where a system is NOT minimum phase would have that relationship breakdown such that either the proportion changes (got quieter /louder and the decay doesn’t scale linearly or equally to other frequency bands). This has consequences - though not necessarily negative. It just causes some issues in the common argument that “frequency response is everything, it tells all the info you need because headphones are minimum phase”. And while admitting it tells you a lot, I can’t help but be a little bit of a stickler just because it annoys me when people echo what they read elsewhere in other comments without knowing what it means. But now you know! https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/wiki/resourcesindex/where-to-find-headphone-measurements/minimumphase-csd-ir/ here is another fairly short read I found from a while ago that discusses it a bit more without getting tooooo deep In the weeds
KARSbenicillin t1_j22a9b9 wrote
Do you have an example of a specific headphone with the excess group delay measurements that show a significant deviation from minimum-phase? Just cause you mention that a lot of popular headphones have large portions of non-linear regions. Like I see the M1060 as an example but it's fairly minor. The HD600 and LCD2 graphs (other than noise in the bass region) looks like it's very much minimum phase.
Personally I don't put much stock into measurement graphs other than to get a general feel for the tuning so don't take this is as me being antagonistic. I'm just curious because I haven't really seen an example where there's a clear and significant deviation from minimum-phase.
wwt3 t1_j22daiw wrote
Oh not at all, it’s all about learning and sharing. I mean I would say a 5ms delay in the low frequencies in those plots is pretty significant… and then a 2ms deviation in the high frequency as well on the lcd2. I also put a lot more time into listening than graphs myself, but they can be useful. The logical fallacy here is just that if they’re going to say it’s min phase and that, due to this, all information about transients and speed etc blah blah is all wrapped up in the fr. Well that’s just not true, a 4ms group delay in audio is not insignificant and could definitely lead a trained/experienced listener to hear a difference. So while in the grand scheme it doesn’t really matter, sometimes I put my neck on the Reddit echo chamber chopping block and say something 😂
Due_Passion_920 t1_j23pyly wrote
>many popular headphones (audeze, hifiman, sennheiser etc) have large portions of nonlinear and non- minimum phase response within their operating range.
Can you please post excess group delay measurements of all these 'many popular headphones' with 'large portions' of non-minimum phase response?
>I mean I would say a 5ms delay in the low frequencies in those plots is pretty significant...
That's measurement noise. See here.
[deleted] t1_j23w4ra wrote
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Due_Passion_920 t1_j24gu8l wrote
Do you have any evidence excess group delay at these levels is audible?
[deleted] t1_j24kby7 wrote
[deleted]
Due_Passion_920 t1_j24nizt wrote
So you have zero evidence to present to back up your claims, got it. That's not how science works.
[deleted] t1_j251gl3 wrote
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Due_Passion_920 t1_j25yppd wrote
No need. People who do actual science, interested in the furthering of knowledge for everyone via transparent academic research, rather than secretive industry insiders preoccupied with lining their pockets and an aversion to sharing data except to a select elitist few with NDAs, have already made their research publicly available. So that's a positive group delay audibility threshold of ~1.5 ms for actual music signals, which few headphones will exceed.
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