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[deleted] t1_j9twzz6 wrote

Bold words, but I agree.

It is really HARD to beat the HD 600/650. I'd even go a step further and say it is really hard NO MATTER how much you spend.

Especially seeing how, tonaly speaking, something like the LCD 5 or Utopia are mere imitations of the 600 formula.

You get more soundstage with those two and better bass extension, sure. But, 5000€ can also buy the HD 800S, which has wider soundstage than either of them AND a pair of KEF R3s PLUS a subwoofer, which makes for a killer speaker setup in addition to the 800S.

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PutPineappleOnPizza t1_j9u2gfv wrote

I'm always surprised when I read stories of people who spent a lot of money on cans to then simply go back to their 600/650 setups. I still want to try a ZMF headphone one day though.

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GarugaHunter t1_j9u40xg wrote

I think it's because they don't try to be something they're not.

They're not really price constrained, they do all they want to do regardless of price.

I suppose they don't go for other things like speed / bass response etc. What they do have is universally liked midrange capabilities and really good timbre.

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AnOldMoth t1_j9xch98 wrote

That's kinda why I don't like them, they have like two strengths and the rest is very meh.

Three blob, very little separation, very narrow and closed sounding, everything kinda smears together and sounds hollow. Mids sound good, timbre is decent, but it lacks on everything else.

It's just far, far too little for me. I can get good mids and timbre with some EQ, I can't really get the rest without absurd measurements that we don't have an a convolution filter.

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CPOx t1_j9u4qko wrote

I used to have a modded HD650 and then got a ZMF Atticus.

I thought the improvement with the Atticus was basically negligible and sold them within a week of ownership.

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slooploop2 OP t1_j9u5bk9 wrote

As much as I love my Caldera, my HD580 does get about as much, if not a little more use…

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leftlanespawncamper t1_j9v0uek wrote

> really HARD to beat the HD 600/650. I'd even go a step further and say it is really hard NO MATTER how much you spend

I feel pretty complete in my headphone journey, but the frequency in which I see comments like this makes me really want to pick up a 6XX.

I'm not sure that I'd like it, though. I have a set of HD555s with a foam-delete mod, and they're probably my least favorite in my collection for sound signature. I don't know how reflective the 555 would be of the 6XX's sound, but if it's more similar than different, then the 6XX wouldn't be for me. As it is, I EQ a bit more bass into my Sundaras to get them where I like them.

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redstangxx t1_j9x6qtw wrote

I have the 650s, the 599SEs, and I just finally bought the 600s - because they went on sale and I wanted to finally hear the differences for myself. To be honest, the 599SEs are damn good for the money. In fact, I did a headphone comparison with a buddy of mine (that's big into hi-fi and home theater but not into headphones at all) where I had him try about 6 pairs of my headphones. In doing direct comparisons between the 650 and 599se, having no idea what they cost, actually preferred the 599s over the 650s. The 650s warm sound takes some time getting used to them to appreciate their sound (in my opinion). For me it took getting a tube amp to sort of rediscover my 650s and appreciate them more. Something to consider.

I haven't done a good comparison to the 600s yet to form a solid opinion, but out of the box I think I like their sound signature better than the 650s too. But all this is very subjective of course. Seems like which one of the 6x0 series you like best is pretty much up to personal preference.

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PedroCostaLins t1_j9u0sve wrote

You could have a recommendation list, even if you are against it, another point of reference to value is welcome, also have you tested/reviewed the Sundara?

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[deleted] t1_j9u1tf5 wrote

Tried the Sundara. Liked the sound, hated the construction.

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the1whoscored80 t1_j9vxob8 wrote

One thing I found through my previous job in audio sales.... I still prefer my ADH-700 and 700X over about anything 500 USD+ I've listened to. Pair that with my Fiio K5 Pro I have running it and I've always been a happy camper.

That said, some amazing headphones exist out there, I just can't justify the cost for myself.

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redstangxx t1_j9x404q wrote

I have the XS, 600 and 650. XS are totally different - I wouldn't even compare them. I like both. The XS sound like I hung speakers from my head. Don't have anything else that sound like that. Very comfortable and easy to listen to all day. I was very curious about the Hifiman sound/lineup. Was super happy they released the XS, which by all accounts sound nearly as good (and some say better) than their more expensive counterparts.

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[deleted] t1_j9x9p09 wrote

>like i hung speakers from my head

great, another one who has never listened to speakers.

You also think the Miata drives like a Honda CBR 1000, only because its a tad bit lighter than your regular car?

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redstangxx t1_ja03jsa wrote

I have thousands of dollars worth of speakers. It's a colorful analogy. Calm down.

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VisceralVoyage420 t1_j9xcf51 wrote

I've listened to Speakers. The XS sounds big. I'm not into speaker setups, but the XS easily sounds better than my Elac Debut Reference speakers.

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nagisa_09 t1_j9z1e8r wrote

I have a pair of JBL 305P MkIIs for my desktop setup, and they have pretty much stopped my search and interest for headphones. Other than needing a subwoofer for deeper bass, they sound just as good as my HD600's IMHO.

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coolylame t1_j9vuuqu wrote

Its very easy to beat hd600 series sound. Going from editon xs to hd600, the hd600 is a muddled mess, no bass extension and rolled off treble. The sundara easily beats hd600 series headphones as well.

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[deleted] t1_j9w0zk7 wrote

I said hard, not impossible.

But the fit and durability of the Chifiman's aint for everyone.

I won't buy them, simply because they feel like toys with their rattly assembly, the cups don't swivel enough, unless you pay 1500€ fir tha arya and their lack of QC on models like the XS and even Susvara makes me not wanna give them my money.

A 600 series with Oratory EQ does the job just as well, whilst being of higher quality and from a more reputable brand.

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AnOldMoth t1_j9xcspi wrote

> A 600 series with Oratory EQ does the job just as well

It really doesn't do it even close to as well. I've toyed around with the 6XX for a long time, I still do. EQ is like, my personal magic bullet for SO MUCH SHIT in headphones, I love it.

No amount of EQ makes the bass sound like anything but a mud cannon with zero definition, nothing makes them feel larger or more clear with good separation, nothing fixes the three blob imaging. They have timbre and mids, two things you CAN fix with EQ, and... that's it. Everything else is pretty damn bad. And I've fixed tons of headphones with similar issues, and none of them have this problem...

The drivers on them are over-dampened to hell and it's unbelievably audible.

HD600 are much better in my experience, but that bass roll-off isn't really fixed by EQ either, because it distorts the whole damn thing when you do it. Those drivers are very dated and it shows, when it comes to boosting frequencies in EQ.

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[deleted] t1_j9xkff6 wrote

Hm, I have no audible distortion with the Oratory preset. Maybe my listening levels are just not loud enough for it to be an issue.

Like, people complained about the clear driver clipping and I make fun of it myself, whenever I can, but I needed too boost the bass to ungodly levels and listen louder than I normally would, to get it clipping.

This, just like your tale and all the people complaining about powerful enough amps being to quiet, just reinforces my belief that many people in this hobby are listening at ungodly levels.

Stay safe, people. Hearing aida are expensive!

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AnOldMoth t1_j9xl33h wrote

I listen at 75-80 dB at most, it's not that loud. It's very specific to the 6X0 series, is the thing. I usually don't have this problem with other drivers.

Then again, I listen almost entirely to planars. There is something about that driver that just works better to my ears. Dynamics always have some quality to them that sounds... I hate to use this term for audio because it's stupid, but low-res. Details are meh, separation is meh. It's like the sound is blurry. Even the best of the best, it has this quality.

Except for speakers, but that's a whole different can of worms.

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[deleted] t1_j9xnobi wrote

Driver types don't matter. What matters is FR at the ear drum.

I believe your "low res" experience is due to marketing telling you that planars are "better" and "more advanced" making confirmation bias kick in. Just like the Stax crowd thinks a 1k boost and utter lack of sub bass "lets you hear god", because "Its the best in the world since 1960".

I am certain that if people were told a headphone was a planar and it had linear bass with good fr, they would just repeat all the "planar bass" and "speed" stick, even though it really was a dd .

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AnOldMoth t1_j9xp3us wrote

> Driver types don't matter. What matters is FR at the ear drum.

While this is technically true, planar drivers by design are able to deliver a more linear response than dynamic drivers are able to. Driver types AFFECT FR at the eardrum.

That is why dynamic drivers have roll-off in the treble and bass, and why good speakers have multiple drivers to cover different parts of the response. Trying to get all of them to cover 20 hz to 20 khz has its drawbacks, and we can see that in most dynamic driver FR graphs.

> I believe your "low res" experience is due to marketing telling you that planars are "better" and "more advanced" making confirmation bias kick in

Definitely not, I am not subjectivist by any stretch of the word, I argue with audio magic believers all the time, just check my comment history, lol. I'm a recording engineer. I know how this stuff works, it's my job to understand it.

In this case, FR at the eardrum is different in every headphone, they even change based on how the cups are positioned on your head, and FR measurements that we have of them are only accurate up to 10 khz, and even then, they're still smoothed over. There's tiny little differences in the response that account for a driver's properties, which is why with current tech, we can't EQ KSC75 to sound like Susvara.

Then, you start getting into the fact that some drivers, measurably, objectively, distort the more you mess with them, compared to others. Planars TEND to distort less, but there are plenty of dynamic drivers that are fine too.

In my experience, the HD6X0 series is not a driver type that handles EQ well, at least below about 400 hz. Treble/Mid EQ works just fine on it, which is why you can fix the recessed treble the 6XX has without issue.

But the bass... good god. It becomes a mud canon with only a little bit of a boost... Then again, it's a mud cannon at stock too, it's just bloated and has no definition whatsoever. HD600 handles this far far better, though the bass overall is reduced.

No, the reason why it sounds that way to me on some headphones is because a lot of driver adjustments are done with dampening, and the 6XX (my main dynamic drivers I personally own) are over-dampened, and it's very obvious when you listen to them.

Like you said, all that really matters is FR at the eardrum. My Ananda are heavily EQ'd, and even when using the same exact setup, measurements, target, etc etc, the Ananda do not have any of the negative qualities I'm used to hearing from the 6XX.

And I know it isn't in my head, because I have level-matched tests (done within 0.1 dB with an SPL meter) with them for people who have ZERO idea about how anything audio-related works, not told them what's what, and they report to me the exact same thing I hear. As in, my fucking mom noticed what I said without me asking or prompting anything related to the sound, and she barely understands how to open files on a computer.

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[deleted] t1_j9xr234 wrote

Planars are not inherently better at delivering more linear FR. The roll of in bass is a function of the resonance frequency and unsealed front volume. Modify either and you get linear bass on a dynamic driver. Alternatively EQ cam get you there as well.

Rough treble can happen with planars just as well as with dynamics. also measurements up there are unreliable and smoothed, so you don't really know whats going on.

I never said we could get a KSC to sound like speakers (well in theory you could but thats like arguing that you could also in theory create a black hole on earth) or whatnot, I just argued driver types don't matter, FR does. Your ear does not give two fucks whether a tone is generated by bird, human vocal chords or a speaker.

Ah yes, your golden ears can hear the "overdampned" driver and presumably you can aslo hear the grass grow.

I'm out fam. People who think their human ears are the end all be all of measuring instruments, like you, are not the type if crowd I want to associate with.

I mean,TO MY EYES the earth is flat sigh.

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VisceralVoyage420 t1_j9xcak7 wrote

The only audio equipment that's broken on me were the Sennheiser Momentum TWS 3 and Sennheiser IE80 IEMs. But I know people are going to say "that's not what Sennheiser is known for".

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