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StarWarder t1_ja3bnac wrote

Reply to comment by halfercode in Do you tolerate poor hi-fi sales service in pursuit of excellent sound? by halfercode

The PS Audio Stellar is infamously one of the worst DACs ever measured at ASR. It miraculously scored a SINAD of 58 which is 41dB lower than an Apple USB-C dongle which achieved 99dB at a price point of 9$. The performance is so bad, it is within human audibility in the details (or loss of details) which is really saying something.

I recommend not paying attention to price as any indicator at all about quality. In fact, I wonder if there's even a reverse correlation between price and performance in the audiophile space. For example check out the TotalDac d16. It is also one of the worst performing DACs measured at a cool 14,000$.

Meanwhile, at the time it was measured, the Topping E50 achieved a SINAD of 121dB, the 6th best measuring DAC in the database and is undoubtably one of the best performing DACs in the world. It can be purchased now for around 200$.

If you really want to get a DAC that has many features and looks fancy, get an RME ADI2. At least that DAC has built-in EQ, perfectly digitally matched volume, a remote, crossfeed, firmware updates, and more. It measures excellently and it integrated perfectly in a speaker/headphone dual use system. RME's products have been time tested for decades and are used in professional mixing and mastering studios around the world. It costs around 1000-1300$ but at least you'd know you're getting your money's worth.

Or if you really want to prioritize aesthetics and have a budget to spend, get a Schiit Ragnarok for 1500$ and it can power speakers as well as send full speaker power through the headphone jacks. Pair it with one of the best performing DACs in the world, the Schiit Modius, for 230$ and call it a day.

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halfercode OP t1_ja3rr4l wrote

Thanks StarWarder - my search-fu clearly isn't very good! 🙈 I did some research on the PS Audio Stellar, and didn't come across anything as useful. For example, I found this to be fully convincing as endorsement of this product. Here is another one, oh dear! Lesson learned here - I need to be more cautious.

I wonder if I might end up testing the patience of Sluggish Shop One - they are unlikely to stock the DAC/amps in that chart. I might see if I can give them the Audeze business and then just buy the rest of the stuff from the web. So much for my wanting to use bricks 'n mortar stores! 😬

For what it's worth, I wonder if my faith in shop demos is now rather dented, only a few weeks into my project. My audiophile ears are nothing if not unpractised, and could end up buying a cans/amp stack that spends too much money or leaves too much performance on the table. This stuff, it turns out, is rather harder than it looks.

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StarWarder t1_ja4gxiw wrote

It can be hard! Unfortunately, this hobby is filled with snake oil. There are a cadre of companies and people who claim that there is a difference in sound between something like a Chord Mojo with Chord's proprietary filter and discrete circuit output stage compared to something like a Schiit Heresy/Modi which is an op-amp based "clinical" sounding amp paired with an analytical AKM (now ESS) chip.

Well I wanted to get to the bottom of this myself so I purchased a switcher and I compared my Schiit Heresy and my Chord Mojo. I staggered the playback times from two different sources but the same track by two seconds. This is a correction for the first mistake people make when trying to conduct a test like this... they try to time the playback exactly... Well if you do that, when you initiate the switch, you're not listening to the guitar strum you just heard, you're listening to the next one... obviously. So you aren't ever comparing apples to apples. It's actually beneficial to stagger the playback slightly and examine the exact same cymbal hits, the same strums, the same reverb trails.

I took this so seriously, I had my hearing tested at an audiologist beforehand at a not insignificant cost to me (American healthcare and all). My hearing sensitivity is perfect. I can also hear up to 18kHz.

After all this, I have never heard a difference in this test or other tests and I've never heard a difference between a DCS Bartok and anything else 1/10 the price.

Solid state electronics (barring particularly terribly designed ones like the Stellar or ones with high output impedance) are all audibly identical and anyone who claims otherwise is selling snake oil... and in fact this may be 90% of audiophile stores considering their business model and collective livelihoods depend on folks believing there is a difference. Keep in mind that you can purchase a speaker cable that costs $125,000.

Now of course, if you want to get into the rabbit hole of tubes and play with harmonic distortion to get a warmer, less precise, but possibly more relaxing or pleasing sound, that's a thing a lot of people enjoy doing. But for now, I'd focus on just getting a DAC that is well measuring, useful, and one that is affordable enough to reserve your capital for the part of the system that actually matters with real, measurable, and audible differences- the headphones.

Going to go by US prices for a second but if you had purchased an LCD2 Classic for 800$ and a Stellar for 2150$, that would be a total spend of 2950$. That puts you into flagship range for headphones. And if I had 2950$ laying around, I kid you not, I would just buy a Utopia and plug that right into my 9$ Apple Lightning Dongle and sleep very well at night knowing I had better sound than all the people who bought an HD800s and a Burson Conductor or something.

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halfercode OP t1_ja7cieo wrote

Fascinating details, thank you.

> Unfortunately, this hobby is filled with snake oil. There are a cadre of companies and people who claim that there is a difference in sound...

I had been pondering about this, particularly since reading the rather harsh replies to the Stellar DAC measurements/review on ASR. I know the internet is ripe for giving people a kicking, but there some folks were suggesting that PS Audio is a deliberate scam and/or the grandfatherly image of Paul's channel on YouTube is a cynical marketing ploy to cover up products they know are inferior. I suppose I take the view that bold claims must be accompanied by bold evidence - in other words I don't like to attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by cock-up.

On the other hand, I'd like to see audio companies being willing to 'fess up when they make a boo-boo. The measurements of the Stellar were something they should have picked up themselves, but I would doubt they would have noticed that in the pre-production model and decided to ignore it. It's a rhetorical question to be sure, but how did distortion that bad end up in such a high-end product?

> And if I had 2950$ laying around, I kid you not, I would just buy a Utopia and plug that right into my 9$ Apple Lightning Dongle

I've done some digging around on the RME ADI2 FS - thanks for the steer. If I pair this with the Audeze LCD-2Cs, I'm looking at around £2K. I suppose I have the budget for the Utopia, but that leaves nothing for a DAC (though I do take onboard what you say about needing only a cheap one). My main worry about the Utopia is that I've not tried them, and demos have been such an unsatisfying affair so far (either in terms of rudeness or the sense of purchase obligation) that I am not sure how many more I can take. That said, I have discovered one very close to me, so I might do one last push before I tell all the "real stores" they've been replaced by the (much less exhausting) internet!

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StarWarder t1_ja7mxfr wrote

I agree, I don’t think most of these engineers or store owners are doing anything malicious. I think most of them really believe what they’re selling which I don’t know is better or worse lol.

Something you might consider to try to get access to more demos is go to CanJam. They have one in London this summer.

It is great fun and a bargain at what you have access to in one weekend.

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halfercode OP t1_ja8r522 wrote

Right, update! I have a demo with Shop Three, and they seem genuinely nice people. They have an LCD-X and a Clear Mg to show off, both ex-demo, and if the LCD-2C is anything to go by, I suspect I might just buy the X there and then. I've done enough messing around now. I just need to check that the warranty is still valid.

It turns out that ADI2s are hard to come by currently, but I think I can see one or two official UK dealers with a small amount of stock...

CanJam sounds great, and I am sure I'd have a lot of fun there. I'd go to talk shop though, since I hope that by the time that rolls around, I will have installed my dream stack, and it won't need adjusting for some years 😼

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StarWarder t1_ja9anw1 wrote

My take on the X is that it’s technically very adept. Moreso than the LCD2. The bass is amazing. Timbre is not as natural as a HiFiman or OG Clear mostly because of the decrease in the high mid/upper treble but a lot of people like the Audeze House Sound. The sound is massive and opaque. I don’t like delicate or whispy sound as much. The whole thing is a lot of fun to listen to.

Just make sure to get the 2021 version or later if you decide to go with an X. They tuned it better after 2021

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halfercode OP t1_ja9c5l7 wrote

> The whole thing is a lot of fun to listen to.

Ooh, this is whetting my appetite 😌

> Just make sure to get the 2021 version or later if you decide to go with an X

I'll ask about the release year, but since this is ex-demo, it could go either way - either pre or post 2021. The ex-demo unit sits at around £1.1k before open-box discount, but they have a brand new one at £1.5k - which might point to the cheaper one being the older model.

While I won't buy if I have any doubts about the sound, I suspect I won't be able to exercise much patience based on tuning 😺. But, who knows, I might prefer the Focal!

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StarWarder t1_ja9ppsa wrote

I’m confused at the pricing- something used is that much? When looking at the official Audeze distributor in the UK, https://www.audeze.co.uk/products/lcd-x , the price is 1149 brand new? There is a creator package (get that one) and the premium which comes with a balanced cable (unnecessary for the efficient-to-drive LCDX) and a case (which shouldn’t cost 550 pounds).

I would investigate why their prices are like that

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halfercode OP t1_jaa6h8a wrote

£1,499 for the new one, and £1,079 reduced to £950 for the ex-demo one.

I assume the £1.5k unit matches the one on the official site costing £1,699 (and thus it is cheaper than RRP). I agree that the case and extra cables shouldn't cost that much, but perhaps Audeze doesn't agree 😲

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StarWarder t1_jaab7b5 wrote

Ah I gotcha. That makes sense. Well good luck and have fun!

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