nipsen t1_j8cvmkf wrote
Great. Now we just have to avoid lawsuit from Intel for stealing their patent on "personal computer"...
imposter22 t1_j8e0uyg wrote
Intel helps develop RISC V and they make the chips. Moving people away from ARM is helpful to Intel.
Also ARM isnt open-source and its not free. So there is a cost to build off their IP
I could see this being good for IoT.
nipsen t1_j8ewzay wrote
None of the terms you wrote there make any sense. And the rest is at best just false.
But if it helps you support something that doesn't suck the air out of the global integrated curcuit market, with the great power of your opinon on the Internet -- sure, buddy. I'm sure it'll be great for the Internet of Things..
Seriously, though -- what in the world do you mean with any of that?
imposter22 t1_j8fq2oy wrote
I’m not sure what you dont understand.
RISC V is a competitive chip architecture to ARM.
Intel produces RISC-V chips in one of their foundries.
Intel also joined the RISC-V international.
nipsen t1_j8hp1ym wrote
a) RISC-V is a general, abstract and formulaeic scheme for how computing elements will work together. There's nothing that stops Intel from offering their compute elements as part of a RISC-V design. Which will have very obvious usage-scenarios, and will have abysmal performance. But there is nothing stopping Intel from doing that.
b) There are parts of Intel that certainly had ambitions of not being married to the cisc-designs from the 90s forever. But those parts of the company mysteriously suffer layoffs, or else are shut down altogether. Projects they are involved in - by sheer chance, I'm sure - end up modifying the prototypes to include monolithic designs with "secret" cisc-optimisation on closed fpga-solutions.
c) Although Intel were promoting a "silicon pre-production stage" of Risc-V chips, this project is now cancelled. They are not producing any Risc-V chips -- no one are producing Risc-v chips. There will be chips based on the schema, for certain, but they will not be the kind of chip that will have the makeup of a protected, instruction set bound specific fpga. In other words: nothing stops Intel from marketing their bullshit offering as "RISC-V", even though they might not offer much in terms of performance, or really use the overall schema at all. That's what they have been gearing up towards, and that's what failed. That's why they now have nothing in it. It's literally not compatible with their "Business model".
d) The Risc-V international foundation - by sheer chance, I'm sure - has relocated to Switzerland in order to specifically -- by sheer chance -- escape very specific concerns about US trade regulations and potential lawsuits.
e) The contribution to this foundation from Intel was 1bn dollars. It's a vanishingly small sum in the sceme of things.
Lastly: is really Risc-V a competitor to arm? I hear tons of people say that, and I certainly read it in industry insider-infested american (spiritually or otherwise) publications. But is it really the case?
What is the case is that ARM offers a very specific type of solution where their basic functions can be enhanced by adding various instruction sets. The m1 at Appul is probably a well known enough example, where adding instruction sets to the hardware layer, both programmable to a certain extent and specified on beforehand, is part of the design. A lot of Arm's customers do not use this part of the design at all, though. And there has been a very specific push from Qualcomm, among others, to gear ARM into having higher core-speeds and better out of order single instruction performance.
ARM's reaction to that has been to produce what the customers want, but there is a very obvious problem here in that as these chips are more and more geared into where the design just does not have any actual strengths - that it will be immediately gobbled up by if not Intel's x86 offerings, then AMD's. So as an alternative Risc-based schema takes shape -- a screaming necessity if you know anything useful about programming, I could add -- what that means is that ARM will then be able to compete with general Risc designs on specific applications. While the codebase that is needed for both ARM and RISC-V to have any point whatsoever - will be developed.
As opposed to being supplanted by an attempt to get x86 into the mobile sphere, and into anything, like Intel has been attempting for decades now. And where they actually have succeeded to a certain degree thanks to the power of marketing, lawsuit and a throwaway budget for this that dwarfs the GDP of a medium-sized European country.
So no - ARM is not a direct competitor to RISC-V, or vice-versa. The road back to RISC will happen, and Intel will not be part of that. At least not in the way the company does business now, or the way it has done business in the past. Intel will disappear as the company it is now, if it even becomes involved with making general contributions to Risc-V schema type chip clusters. And that's just not going to change, regardless of how many billions of dahllars go into marketing.
You will claim differently until the end of time, I'm sure. But your opinon, as shocking as it may seem, does not, in fact, alter reality.
carl_on_line t1_j8qyba8 wrote
> RISC V is a competitive chip architecture to ARM.
RISC-V is not a chip architecture (micro architecture), it's an instruction set architecture.
dajigo t1_j8dtdvu wrote
Patents expire. What is the priority of Intel's patent?
nipsen t1_j8eyvsi wrote
I don't know. No one does, after many, many years. I mean, other than screwing over competition with legal wrangling.
The joke is that Intel has very literally stalled or outright managed to crush several attempts to put x86 instruction set emulators and cisc-implementations on various RISC-computers, now that the instruction set level storage is no longer prohibitively expensive on a computation unit. The actual legal details of this ongoing feud is so sordid and ridiculous at the same time, that in several cases even completely blank judges have decided the arguments don't hold up. But at the moment, if you wanted to do cisc-type optimisation of an x86 emulation engine, whether this is programmable instruction sets or not, this runs afoul Intel's definition of PC. So does chip-constructions that simply store instruction sets on general computation cores.
So there is in a sense still a requirement that an abstraction of a RISC-implementation cannot actually use x86 instruction sets at all. Which is why it is such a big deal that google throws it's weight behind a general Risc-v abstraction layer, in an attempt to make this a full ecosystem. I'm sure Intel will stick to the existing market forever in the same way. And surely there will be endless amounts of lawsuits coming the instant someone figures out how to emulate x86 VMs with any speed on Risc-V architectures. And at this point I wouldn't even be surprised if Intel will claim that any architecture technically capable of execution an emulated x86 instruction set in hardware will infringe on this utility of the x86 instruction set Intel has defined as a PC.
Anyway - at some point Intel will be gone, and this idiocy will end. But judging by how it's being done now, it won't end until the company is bankrupt.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments