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dmazzoni t1_j1vj670 wrote

Reply to comment by breckenridgeback in ELI5: How is that Pantone colors don't have direct RGB counterparts? by ExternalUserError

How does a graphic designer work with colors in Photoshop, knowing that many colors can't be accurately represented in RGB on their computer monitor?

Would you look at Pantone swatches to see what the "real" color will look like, then look at the Photoshop version and imagine what the final result will look like with the real Pantone color? Basically is it mostly in your mind and your ability to imagine what the abstract digital art would look like when finally realized?

Or do you use software to try to model the resulting material and render it under different lighting conditions?

Or do you print or order samples of the target media in the correct colors in order to see what it will look like and adjust?

Or something else entirely?

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JoCoMoBo t1_j1vowex wrote

>Would you look at Pantone swatches to see what the "real" color will look like, then look at the Photoshop version and imagine what the final result will look like with the real Pantone color?

This, and spending a lot of time colour calibrating the monitor to actual colours. Apple monitors and lcd screens were great as they could be colour calibrated easily.

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DiscoveryOV t1_j1wgcm8 wrote

I believe they also generally just came calibrated from the factory, no?

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C47man t1_j1zvs2z wrote

>I believe they also generally just came calibrated from the factory, no?

Any serious artist using a computer monitor will calibrate it, normally using a probe and some specialized software that works with it. There's a few different brands out there. The cheaper end is iirc around 150-250 USD, like the Spyder

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ocelot08 t1_j1w29xw wrote

Basically all of the above/whatever you have access to.

For production runs, ordering proofs of your work is very important before they run too many. You can make adjustments in a lot of different ways. But pantone is REALLY helpful so you and the printers have the same reference point for a color (theoretically).

I love this stuff, if you have any questions I'll ramble on about print production.

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Ownzies t1_j1x8hte wrote

What do you do for work, if it is related to this?

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ocelot08 t1_j1xd12j wrote

Graphic designer with experience with print and print production

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Wanderslost t1_j20dwpj wrote

Is it possible to get 12 color wheels of Pantone colors that mimic specifice color spaces, such as traditional RBY, RGB, CMKY and even artistically pleasant (but theoretically unsound) spectrums?

I would prefer wheels that have different saturation in rings. I have spent a lot of time fiddling with photoshopping and pdfs of a Pantone swatch book. It has been interesting, but I have to believe this work has been done before.

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ocelot08 t1_j20gs91 wrote

Lmk if I didn't understand your idea right, but based on my understanding of what you're proposing:

The issue with color matching is really the physical world. Mixing paints and printers aren't perfect but also leds and screen technologies are all a little different. Like one batch of leds may be a little more red, another a little more blue, so even if the computer gives the led the same color data, it will look different in the physical world.

But I think your idea could work, but you would need to control every stage of production and keep everything calibrated together:

  • all designers computers in the same color space
  • all monitors calibrated the same
  • all printers calibrated the same (both in office and at in the print shop)
  • and if you are using any digital displays, ideally those are all calibrated as well.

I think it's possible, it's just a lot of work for not much reward. And note that like anything in the physical world, it all deteriorates over time from wear or sunlight or whatever, so all those things would need to be calibrated regularly and done together.

Instead, we usually try and keep our pantone chips away from light, sometimes need to rebuy a pack, and just eyeball color matching with printers. It's generally assumed everyone in the chain has access to a well kept at least basic set of pantone chips.

Digital is a mess and basically we just don't have control (although I don't think ive ever used Pantone for anything digital). We test on as many different devices we can, but there's always going to be some folks with really terrible phone screens or something.

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Wanderslost t1_j20vrrv wrote

Thank you for your time.

I manufacture acrylic dice. I have 3 introductory (pantone C) colors that I just picked out because I liked them. The essence of my problem is I would like to offer 3 sets of 12 colors based off of these original colors. But I don't know how to pick the future pantones, though I have the original codes.

For bonus points. I thought it would be interesting if each set of 12 colors used a different color theory. However, I would settle for just making the house standard the painter's color wheels (ryb).

Not much translation needs to happen here. I provide the Pantone number, and they do it. The final product just needs to make sense with the dice already made. My comments above about pdfs and such was just a description of my (failed) attempts to figure this out.

Thanks again!

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ocelot08 t1_j21buey wrote

Ah interesting. I mean it's not gonna be much help, but I would basically just create a color palette in some Adobe program and then match pantone swatches to it. As it sounds like you've seen, color theory can get really complicated.

A nice tool is Adobe color. It won't give you a set of 12 but it could make for some good starting points as they have a number or ways to use different colors and push and pull them together as a set.

Anyways, good luck!

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rabid_briefcase t1_j1wajxf wrote

> How does a graphic designer work with colors in Photoshop, knowing that many colors can't be accurately represented in RGB on their computer monitor?

First off, Photoshop itself has some tools. You can configure your color spaces while working. Photoshop will then highlight unprintable colors when they're out of gamut. It can also highlight colors that will exist in print but can't be displayed on your monitor.

Other than that, print shops use boxes and books full of printed color reference cards.

If you aren't color matching a reference system like Pantone but are instead trying to see exactly how the final print will look, shops will print out a bunch of their own reference cards and chips on the papers, cardstock, vinyl, polyester, or whatever it is they'll be printing on.

And it isn't enough to just have one and keep it forever. Papers fade and discolor, inks fade and discolor, so the colors can drift away in unacceptable ways after two or three years. Bigger print studios will budget a few thousand dollars each year to continuously update their reference colors.

Every blend ends up being slightly different. Printing a specific CYMK on one brand of cardstock will have different appearance than that same CYMK on a different brand of cardstock. Printing on glossy paper will look different from matte paper. Printing on paper versus printing on vinyl will look different. Each one will be similar, and some will be nearly identical, but visually each will still be different.

That's part of the appeal of Pantone, the print shop is supposed to account for it and fine tune for whatever inks, dyes, and media they're using so it produces a match. If someone is expecting P15-5519, but it happens that the specific paper happens to make the print a slightly greener turquoise, the shop is supposed to adjust the color mix so it matches the reference color instead of matching a specific CYMK blend. If this combination happens to need a little more black or a little less yellow, they'll adjust the CYMK to whatever it needs to be in order to visually produce the Pantone color P15-5519.

Getting the colors to match exactly is one of the reasons for proofs before a big print run, you want to verify with the customer that they're satisfied before running the full batch. It isn't just for issues like spelling and placement (although those are part of it), it's also to ensure the color is precisely what they expect on the various media used.

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dmazzoni t1_j1wbzqq wrote

Thanks, this is really fascinating.

Are you saying that a good print shop is calibrating their equipment so that it's producing colors that match Pantone in general?

Or are you saying that the graphic designer will send them the file to print and ask them to custom-match a few specific colors in the image to specific pantone shades, specific for that job?

If the latter, I'm assuming you'd pick just a couple of important shades.

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rabid_briefcase t1_j1wonqu wrote

It depends. Something like a corporate logo that it supposed to be exactly a specific reference color needs to match exactly. Something less precise like a family reunion banner would have more leeway. The clients, the job details, and the nature of the job tell a lot even without explicitly asking.

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Shotgun81 t1_j1ydqgr wrote

Man, when I was in art school and learned about how crazy specific and controlled corporate colors were it blew my mind.

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gridsandorchids t1_j1xh0di wrote

Print shops also typically have color definitions that apply to specific processes that you should follow for a job.

For example, dark blacks in print. In CMYK, where K is basically black, going 0/0/0/100 is not a very dark black. It needs other colors mixed in. But if you do too much, you can wind up with a black that's too richly mixed and won't dry properly, and wind up smearing and ruining your prints.

A print shop will typically have a specific CMYK mix you should use for the richest black without fucking things up, that looks something like 30/30/20/100. They will also often use something like 0/0/0/100 to define what is essentially an alpha layer for some other process layer like gloss or glitter or embossing. You provide a layer of the design where black is what gets embossed and white is what doesn't, for example.

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No-Barnacle2180 t1_j1x6ks5 wrote

"Getting the colors to match exactly is one of the reasons for proofs before a big print run, "

Say, I went online and ordered printing on tshirts with image I creared in Photoshop. The Printers sent me a pdf proof via email. Now you have an image I created in Photoshop being printed on textile with a pdf proof. Impossible to know what the actual colour will be on the physical tshirt, no?

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strawhatArlong t1_j1xj5ap wrote

Yep, this is a common problem. If you ever create a t-shirt in Photoshop and send it to a t-shirt company for printing, they'll usually provide a list of guidelines to follow to minimize the risk of this happening but a lot of non-designers won't always follow them.

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rabid_briefcase t1_j1xjlqn wrote

That is the kind of print job that rarely requires exact matching.

If you have actual need to get a match, you will need to use a reference system like Pantone. Think along the lines of a major corporate logo. It should have been a part of the bid.

For most tshirt orders you will need to trust the person working on the other end. Ask them for their thoughts and listen to their response. They spend all day, every day working with the materials and know how yours will look.

You won't get a perfect color match from the image, but you can check everything else. Tell them your concerns and ask them questions before you sign off. If they are hesitant about your design it is a big warning. If they are confident it will look nice, go for it.

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felis_flatus t1_j1w7948 wrote

I can’t speak for others, but I’ve found color calibrating my monitors to be a chore and not entirely accurate. So I just work in a CMYK color space in photoshop, Illustrator, and/or InDesign, get things roughly how I want, print a sample, adjust, print, etc, until the color is to my liking.

Different printers will also represent colors differently, so I either need to print on the same type I’ll eventually have the job printed off of, or understand how they treat the colors differently so I know roughly how it will change. That’s also a reason I keep multiple printers around.

Lastly, if I’m designing for screen only, I’ll just use an RGB color space and check it on multiple devices/monitors to ensure it looks good everywhere. That often means compromising on the exact color, but the goal is to make something pleasing for as many use cases as possible.

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strawhatArlong t1_j1xj81u wrote

I work with two monitors from two different companies (my regular computer monitor and a Wacom drawing tablet). Color calibration is such a nightmare.

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felis_flatus t1_j1xxw6p wrote

It really is, which is why I gave up on it. And with so many new types of screen technologies, it’s only gotten worse. Oh well

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breckenridgeback t1_j1vkkgu wrote

I don't know the answers to these questions. I'm not a professional graphic designer. I do know that Photoshop and other tools support working in different color spaces, wider than those that can be displayed on the web (which uses sRGB as a standard, covering only about a third of human color vision). Some very high-quality monitors support a very wide gamut of colors, and I would assume (but don't know) that those are used for exceptionally high-fidelity graphic design work.

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strawhatArlong t1_j1xiv12 wrote

I do the first and last one usually. If the project is given the time and resources that it needs, you'll usually order lots of test prints and make corrections as needed. But it can be a huge pain in the ass.

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joelluber t1_j1xzbik wrote

In addition to what everyone else has said,

>Or do you print . . . in order to see what it will look like and adjust?

Many printing/publishing companies have special laser or inkjet printers that have been specially calibrated using a standard called SWOP (Specification for Web Offset Publications; not "Web" here refers to web press printing not the world wide web) to closely mimick what something will look like on the industrial scale printing presses. In the early days of my publishing career, I worked on paper page proofs made by a normal mediocre quality office printer and also got a stack of high quality SWOP proofs just of the art.

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