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hacktheself t1_j232apa wrote

It’s a conscious choice.

Battery swap technologies for electric vehicles existed in the freaking 1890s in Manhattan. China is incentivizing battery swap vehicles now.

Car makers are choosing to not battery swap for $reasons, despite that it would be better four everyone if all that was needed to “recharge” was a 5min visit to an automated garage that swapped batteries.

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bremidon t1_j2378i2 wrote

You need to actually take a deeper look before being quite so confident.

You are semi-correct though: it *is* a conscious choice. You are just completely wrong on the reasons.

Here are the real reasons:

  • We do not have enough batteries. We need every single battery we can make to be in a car, not sitting around somewhere doing nothing.
  • Swapping stations are bulky and expensive. It is *much* more efficient and effective to use the same amount of space and money to make chargers than swapping stations. We are not talking 10 or 20% better, but more like 10 to 20 times better.
  • Your "5 minutes" only works if you compare a single car charging to a single car swapping. Because you cannot have so many swapping stations, you are going to end up with queues, and that will drastically change things up. Even just a 4 car queue is going to put charging and swapping on fairly level ground.
  • There are legal issues surrounding the batteries. If you bought them, then what happens when you get new ones swapped in? What if you deliberately swapped out defective batteries just to get better ones? If you don't own them, how does that work? Who is responsible for the batteries currently in your car?

I want to make clear that none of these things are unsolvable, but they *are* major headwinds. We are having trouble building out just a charger network; waiting for a swapping network would delay things by at least 10 years or more.

Only the first one is guaranteed to be solved, more or less on its own. In 5-10 years we can strike it from the list. The last one is probably the next easiest, but I expect it will take at least 10 years for all the legal difficulties to wind their way through courts.

The middle two are tough, though. As charging times keep coming down and the ability to charge at home keeps increasing, the use case for swapping gets smaller and smaller. Perhaps it will end up being a thing in some bigger cities, but it will probably never be the standard.

Bonus Reason: Because of all of the previous reasons, it is less expensive (and makes the car lighter and safer) to make the batteries part of the structure. So unless someone can quickly solve all those earlier points, the carmakers are going to all gravitate towards swapping being physically impossible. This reduces the use case for creating a swapping system and the whole idea simply collapses in on itself.

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maowai t1_j250g9f wrote

Chargers are also much, much more mechanically simple than some sort of machine that would swap out your 1000lb battery for you. Electrify America already has trouble keeping their chargers working. Imagine how bad it would be if it was machines with 500 moving parts instead.

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hacktheself t1_j23ubhw wrote

you made highly erroneous assumptions.

the claim of 10-20x efficiency for chargers vs swappers is intriguing

a swap station is bulkier and more expensive to build but at the same time is capable of continuously charging more batteries in parallel and testing all the batteries at the same time

additionally if you have five cars queueing for one 5min swap that’s 20min for the last car; if you have five cars queueing for four fast chargers, even if that fast charge is 10min, average wait time per vehicle is longer and that assumes full high speed delivery of fast charge which is dependent on multiple factors

this latter phenomenon is parallel to the walk left-stand right concept commonly used in escalators except statistically speaking standing on both sides moves everyone faster, both in teens of average speed and throughput and increases escalator reliability since the steps aren’t unevenly worn

the final bullet point is a good one, and there are multiple possible answers but a reasonable one is that access to the battery network is subscription based as in you pay a monthly fee for the batteries

additionally against your final point: swappable batteries aren’t structural but the frame around them most assuredly is, just like how the battery box at least should be structural but the batteries themselves cannot be for safety reasons

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ForceOfAHorse t1_j23b7cp wrote

The most important part of this conscious choice is that... Nobody wants that. Most use cases for cars these days are short trip to work-store-home. Nobody needs to swap batteries. People just charge at their destinations.

There are few problems with electric cars that can be solved with upgrading infrastructure, but battery swapping stations are definitely not one of those.

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hacktheself t1_j23r6ya wrote

hi. nobody here. thank you for acknowledging atypical use cases that need to be considered as more typical if EVs are to be utilisable as general replacements for ICE vehicles particularly in less densely populated regions or for longer trips.

not everyone has access to charging infra at destinations. not everyone can charge where they live or work. not all grids can handle the additional base load of EV charging (looking at you, texas).

swappable batteries would also radically lower vehicle and battery fabrication costs, by the way, not to mention eliminate a worry every li-ion device nowadays has that didn’t use to be a worry: what happens when the battery’s lifespan is breached and capacity craters.

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ForceOfAHorse t1_j23vy65 wrote

> not everyone has access to charging infra at destinations

So there is a big chance you won't have access to battery swapping station also, since it would require even more powerful infrastructure. If there is no electricity there will be no battery swapping station. Or maybe you just want to buy multiple batteries and carry them with you?

> swappable batteries would also radically lower vehicle and battery fabrication costs

How so? Well, maybe if cars were sold without batteries that would of course make sense, but then you'd pay for the batteries anyway at swapping stations. I'd say that it would increase the overall cost, since you'd need more batteries than cars to make sure there is always one waiting for you at the station. But that's just guess game now.

> what happens when the battery’s lifespan is breached and capacity craters.

You go to the mechanic and replace the battery, like any other part of a car that goes faulty :).

Right now, most EV car consumers have access to charging infrastructure and are not doing very long trips all the time. Those who do, just buy petrol cars simply because they are much more convenient for those uses. If the market of home-charged electric cars saturates, then it's time to compete with ICE cars on those long distances. We are not there yet. And we may never get there, who knows? I know that if I were to buy a new car now, I'd go for electric regardless if I could swap my battery or not. It's just that they are expensive now due to high demand.

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maowai t1_j24yi9l wrote

I would need to visit a special place to recharge my car and a person or myself would have to manually remove 1000lbs of battery and replace it with a new one? That sounds like a much, much worse option than just taking 3 seconds to plug it into the charger in my garage. I don’t see how that’s better for anyone, even if you can’t charge at home and need to visit DC fast chargers all the time.

Could I do it both ways? Allow swapping and charging at home? Sure, but is that worth the immense design and engineering trade offs, when home charging + DC fast chargers work fine in almost all cases?

Relying on swapping would also be a big profit center for car companies because they could charge big recurring swap subscriptions. They don’t do it because it’s a bad idea, not just because of money.

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maowai t1_j24z89m wrote

Only non-EV drivers think that swapping is a good or necessary option. The second you’ve lived with an EV for a month or so, you realize how totally inconvenient and unnecessary it would be.

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hacktheself t1_j2511vh wrote

my kona ev with 62k km on the clock in less than two years would disagree with you but i can see your point

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