Submitted by DapperWheel521 t3_z2rlca in explainlikeimfive
Why do we have these thoughts, like driving down the road and just feel like swearing or being High up and feel like jumping down
Comments
Applejuiceinthehall t1_ixhtfmi wrote
I have heard something similar, that it is the brain simulating what would happen. obviously hard to test something like that so it's just speculation
HobbyMathematician t1_ixhueub wrote
I also read something similar alongside that it is hard to comprehend for your brain the freedom of your choices. You could end or totally ruin your or other's life with simple actions, you just choose not to.
Mistica12 t1_ixiy12s wrote
Kierkegaard explains this feeling in his book, The Concept of Anxiety. As an example, he asks us to consider a man standing on a cliff or tall building. If this man looks over the edge, he experiences two different kinds of fear: the fear of falling, and fear brought on by the impulse to throw himself off the edge. This second type of fear, or anxiety, arises from the realization that he has absolute freedom to choose whether to jump or not, and this fear is as dizzying as his vertigo. Kierkegaard suggests that we experience the same anxiety in all our moral choices, when we realize that we have the freedom to make even the most terrifying decisions. He describes this anxiety as “the dizziness of freedom”, and goes on to explain that although it induces despair, it can also shake us from our unthinking responses by making us more aware of the available choices. In this way it increases our self-awareness and sense of personal responsibility. ”
https://educationmuseum.wordpress.com/2012/10/10/kierkegaard-anxiety-is-the-dizziness-of-freedom/
OmegaIXIUltima t1_ixjumpx wrote
Fascinating, I experienced that second fear just last night.
musicismath t1_ixl7gsy wrote
This guy Sorens.
MSMmethenger t1_ixljcn0 wrote
"Believe a woman, you will regret it; believe her not, you will also regret it… Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will regret that too; hang yourself or don't hang yourself, you'll regret it either way; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both."
Good ol' Soren, cheery bloke.
Intergalacticdespot t1_ixnwwel wrote
I think research focuses on edge cases too much. We don't think of the number of times we have an urge to put a candy bar in our pocket at the store, put a fork in the garbage disposal, or dump a cup of coffee into the printer/our cubicle mates' lap. But I think it's all the same. Even just what if I didn't tie my shoes today, what if I didn't look back before I backed the car out, what if I flipped off that cop on the side of the road. All of these things are similar but less life threatening and don't really come up in the research as much. If at all. The focus on what if I throw myself off this bridge missed that...we have similar anti-social or destructive thoughts about things all the time. It misses some of the complexity of human experience when we only talk about extremes or edge cases. Imo.
Old-Chemist-1748 t1_iy9tix7 wrote
I really can't say that I've ever been on the edge of a building, and been afraid of MY IMPULSE to throw myself off. And I've literally sat on a 10 story parking garage, like with my legs over the side of the building just you know sitting there like on a bench. I mean I knew that I could very well maintain my balance, I'm not afraid of heights, so really neither fear applied to me there. But never have I been afraid because I have a choice to jump. I mean that could apply while I'm walking down the street. I might just decide to jump in front of this truck. I understand the concept of what he was trying to say, I just don't think his delivery is very good. I think I have pictures of that, I mean of me sitting on the top of that building. I'm grandma though I don't know how to add pictures. Can you even do that?
Yeagen t1_ixj608i wrote
The best ELI5 I saw is that we are constantly told "murder is bad" and accept it. When you get one of these feelings, it's basically your brain going "hey you sure? Yea? Ok cool just curious"
PassiveChemistry t1_ixjqg6a wrote
This reminds me of a weird thing that seems to happen in my head when I get excessively stressed (e.g. uni final exams that I'd drastically underprepared for): I would find myself thinking about various ways of topping myself with a kind of detached curiosity, although I never felt I was actually in danger.
butterflifields t1_ixl0ztl wrote
That could be cause for concern if you find its happening more frequently. My ideation started that way and without correction became an attempt. It could be nothing but better to be aware.
uniqueUsername_1024 t1_ixm6udc wrote
Just wanna emphasize what the other commenter said.
PassiveChemistry t1_ixm7417 wrote
Fortunately I'm completely fine at the moment and am now in therapy for tangentially related reasons, so if it starts again I'll have the necessary support I think. Thanks for the concern though.
uniqueUsername_1024 t1_ixm7a3v wrote
Awesome! 🧡
Sharpshooter188 t1_ixjhahy wrote
I had a mini panic attack once while driving down the freeway one night due to this. I thought "Just one turn of wheel and I could potentially kill myself and others. that all it would take." So then I gripped onto thr steering wheel pretty hard. Kind of "to make sure" that didnt happen. as though some outside force was going to magically make it happen.
muchnamemanywow t1_ixjnk7n wrote
Well that's a relief, I've had loads of intrusive thoughts about homicidal shit that really creeped me out moments later. I always feel so guilty afterwards too. (After the thought has passed, not the alternative 💀)
f4f4f4f4f4f4f4f4 t1_ixl00c9 wrote
>there is nothing wrong with talking to a therapist if you really feel like acting on these things
Actually... if you tell people you are having suicidal thoughts, you may quickly find yourself losing autonomy and be held in a hospital for a week for observation at a cost of $50,000
152centimetres t1_ixlgrpd wrote
unless you actually have a plan in place they usually aren't actually allowed to hold you against your will like that
like if they ask if you have suicidal thoughts and you say yes they'll ask if you have a plan in place or an idea about how you'd do it - thats the part you say no to even if you do
Brennir10 t1_ixmhpoo wrote
Unlikely. Maybe if you call your therapist repeatedly at 3 am threatening to do it but not just talking about it. Suicidal ideation is much more common than people think and is not the same as being actively suicidal. A decent therapist usually knows the difference. I have had suicidal ideation for YEARS ….AND I have easy access to a very definitive method of suicide….and I’ve been in therapy for years and talk about it openly. The only time I was ever kept against my will was when I basically set everything up for the suicide,then got scared bc I wasn’t 100% sure I wanted to die but I was 100% sure I would be dead in a few hours if someone didn’t do something. I told someone who drove me to the ER. Even at the ER if I had the chance to change my mind ( not sure what would have happened then) but didn’t bc I knew if I went home I would kill myself that night. I did get stuck there for a few days which were largely useless but got me through the impulse to die safely. It did cost though I am lucky to have insurance. But It’s not as if the moment you mention suicide you are involuntarily committed, at least not in any of the US states I have lived in
Rip_in_Peppa_Pig t1_ixl6d3s wrote
>cost of $50,000
Damn where do you live that it costs so much.
VolkspanzerIsME t1_ixku2uu wrote
So if I'm understanding this right our brains are seeing modern society and all it's daily trappings as a bad bet and a losing proposition and so tells us that it's a good idea to nope out of the situation in any way possible.
This makes a lot of sense.
uniqueUsername_1024 t1_ixm73ux wrote
No, I think it’s that brain is always analyzing various choices. For example, if I’m looking at a restaurant menu and craving pizza, my brain might ponder, What if I get a burger? It doesn’t mean I secretly want a burger, or that pizza is harmful; it’s just a thing that happens.
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DapperWheel521 OP t1_ixhwyso wrote
That makes sense
shadypriests t1_ixkngxw wrote
yeah, something about the brain only being able to process positives, not negatives. “don’t think of a blue bike” we don’t pay attention the “don’t” part
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[deleted] t1_ixhrss0 wrote
So, the explanation i was taught is that everyone experiences these feelings or thoughts at one point or another in their lives, or atleast most people. It is perfectly normal and ok for it to happen.
It becomes a problem when it morphs into suicidal ideation; where you can’t just brush these thoughts away, and instead fantisize or imagine actually dying for more than a second or minute. And often.
I want to assure you that the two are distinct, and If you experience the latter, talking to a professional is advised.
As for exactly why the first one happens, there is no real conclusive evidence that i’ve come across, i learned about it through education about five years ago, so new science may have come out.
The call of the void is one of my favorite emotions, i feel truly alive when i realize that i am just a single action away from certain death, but i never act on this or long for it to happen, nor do i imagine my death in situations outside these short lived experiences.
DapperWheel521 OP t1_ixhxmcf wrote
No, am not suicidal or anything but, it's just weird am cutting something and I get a urge to just cut my hand, like out the blue
[deleted] t1_ixi6mj1 wrote
Suicidal ideation does not mean that you are suicidal. It means you have vivid imagery of dying or taking your life, and it happens to people. It’s ok that it happens, but it may be an issue so talking to a professional about it is best If that’s the case.
GSGhostTrain t1_ixknky8 wrote
I don't think persistently imagining yourself dying of causes outside of your control qualifies as suicidal ideation; that just sounds like an intense and specific form of anxiety.
[deleted] t1_ixkrpgu wrote
Only If it actually makes you anxious. The two are not mutually exclusive, either
redundantwoodland t1_ixlagrl wrote
From someone that experiences this 'call of the void' almost daily, I've spent long enough with it now that it doesn't make me anxious anymore, I know what it does and how it makes me feel. I can never just shrug if off but I can get passed it, it leaves me ruminating for the rest of the day.startung with a flash thought. What happens if I yank the steering wheel right? And then hit that barrier. I will then spend the day thinking about different speeds, other types of vehicles involved and the list goes on. I do want to say that I'm not suicidal, I don't wish to take my own life but I am OK with dying
KozuBlue t1_ixi8ayz wrote
Clinical Psychologist here. This is taking on board the fact you said you don't want to act on these thoughts. I can't really speak for you specifically as we haven't had an assessment together, but these thoughts really are normal. We can't control things like this. The problem is not the thoughts. The problem is worrying about the thoughts, and trying to control them.
redrehtac t1_ixj3smv wrote
I’m curious about thought looping. I’ve been in therapy and medicated for a while now so the worst intrusive thoughts are gone but I still get thoughts that just loop and loop and loop and some days it feels like it won’t ever stop. I have to have constant noise like a podcast or music in the background most of the time. I’d love to be able to just enjoy silence with out the looping
Salesopolis t1_ixj7kjr wrote
.... other people don't experience thoughts in the form of loops?
redrehtac t1_ixj8oa0 wrote
Maybe?? No one has mentioned it to me before so…other than like a song getting stuck in someone’s head? Idk man.
femmestem t1_ixk4cjx wrote
I used to until I got on OCD meds. It was unsettling how quiet my brain has been. I'm now baffled as to how thinking happens when I can't hear myself think anymore.
septembersoul t1_ixkc9dh wrote
>It was unsettling how quiet my brain has been.
May I ask what meds are you on, for how long and how much mg? I started with escitalopram a month and 1/2 ago, seems like I have a long way to go. OCD as well.
overlyambitiousgoat t1_ixl5a8h wrote
I don't suppose you've got any recommendations for scientific literature that deals with intrusive/obsessive thoughts, do you?
I struggle with this stuff pretty severely (repetitions of phrases like, "you're worthless trash" etc. at <5 minute intervals, all day, every day, for decades). I've been through many years of medication and therapy/mindfulness/etc., and nothing has been even remotely effective on this front.
Dense material is best, but I'll eagerly take anything at all that might be helpful or interesting.
Birdie121 t1_ixi757w wrote
There isn't really a conclusive scientific explanation, because the brain is weird and complicated and we know very little still about the actual mechanisms behind mental illness. Basically everyone normally experiences some symptoms of neurodivergence/psychosis once in a while, and the problem is when someone has those traits scaled way up and it's affecting their day-to-day experience of life and relationships with other people.
Intrusive thoughts are a particularly interesting example though, because (and I'm speculating here but I think some folks would agree) they could be a way to imagine potential future scenarios, elicit a fear response, and plan accordingly to avoid harm. So you might be thinking "what if I did that" and you get temporarily fixated on that idea, but your brain may actually be trying to get you to take care to avoid a dangerous/deadly outcome.
blink-imherebaby t1_ixipa1r wrote
Psychologist here:
On cognitive therapy we call them automatic thoughts, they are intimately related to our feelings and behavior and they come as a symptom of our core beliefs, that were developed with time and experiences we had (and guess what? Are intimately linked to our feelings and behavior as well!).
It is NORMAL to have automatic thoughts, everyone has them, problem is, as you said, when they are a reflection of a view about yourself/the world that doesn't match, so your core beliefs start getting a bit off with the reality. Basically, the way you learned to react/deal with certain situations stopped being appropriate for the present time of your life.
On cognitive therapy, we will address these thoughts very briefly, bc they are only A SYMPTOM of a problem, so our focus will be on solving cognitive dissonances you have and work on adaptative responses to the situations where you have these thoughts. I won't extend myself more, but if you want to know more about it, I recommend you to read Aaron Beck and his daughter, Judith Beck. They are the biggest references on this area!
uniqueUsername_1024 t1_ixm7v6m wrote
What do you do if you used to be suicidal for so long that suicidal ideation becomes an automatic thought?
I have no real desire to hurt myself, but every time something bad happens to me, my brain goes “What if you [suicide method]?” It’s more than call of the void—it’s a specific and very detailed method using items that aren’t necessarily nearby. (Literally the same thoughts I had when I was actively suicidal.)
Thing is, I don’t want to hurt myself. I like living! But I can’t tell my therapist and risk being hospitalized—if there’s even a 1% chance of that happening, I’ll put up with the thoughts instead. They’re not a danger to me, just stressful and annoying. Is there anything I could research?
Brennir10 t1_ixmiq21 wrote
Was in a similar boat. Have you tried meditation? That did wonders for me. Now when the thought starts to come up I can take a breath, hit pause in my brain, try to understand what in my life might be triggering the thought , and then let the thought go without dwelling on it. Turn my mind to doing something about the current situation that might be triggering the thoughts. I know it is a trite suggestion but it really did work for me. I almost never think about suicide beyond the automatic “maybe I should kill my self “ thought. No rumination or anything
urzu_seven t1_ixhym9f wrote
Intrusive thoughts such as this are common, everyone has them. The reason is because our brains are constantly having thoughts and we just don’t pay attention to most of them. In any situation your brain is analyzing all kinds of possibilities, and automatically ignoring the irrelevant ones for the most part. Occasionally you notice them and if they are scary or unpleasant it might seem upsetting for a moment but most of them time you can easily dismiss them. Unfortunately sometimes some people, usually due to mental illness, being in a temporary bad mental state, or for other reasons pay more attention to these kind of thoughts than they need to which can lead to anxiety, depression, and in unfortunate cases dangerous action. If you find yourself experiencing these kind of thoughts on a frequent enough basis (or they feel particularly strong) it’s a good idea to talk to a mental health professional. There is help available and you absolutely can do something about it.
duckey41 t1_ixkj9a3 wrote
I think the fact that “The call of the void” scares us is the point. Like other people said, we have the thoughts to consider what would happen if we did certain things, when we realize how bad the outcome would be, it scares us. Humans are really good at classifying or naming things so we eventually started calling rational thoughts about suicidal actions, “The call of the void.” A scary name for a scary thought.
[deleted] t1_ixhqfuw wrote
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The_A4_Paper t1_ixhrq92 wrote
If you feel a very strong urge to drive off the road or jump off a cliff, I would suggest a meeting with a therapist.
On the topic at hand, the Human brain evolves to have these kinds of thoughts. It allows you to simulate and prepare for unexpected situations. Basically, if you are driving then there is a chance that you might lose control and go off the road, so your brain urges you to think about the situation. So in the unlikely case that you actually go off the road, you're already prepared for it.
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Kiyonai t1_ixis969 wrote
Just wanted to share that I listened to an intrusive thought when I was a teenager hahaha. I was on the back deck cleaning my hamster cage, talking to my step dad. And my brain went, “What would happen if you threw hamster poo at him?”
…he was very surprised and not happy hahaha.
PM_ME_AYY_LMAOOS t1_ixj7ks1 wrote
Potentially you have OCD or PTSD, these could initiate them to occur. But they could also be triggered by stress or anxiety.
loverlyone t1_ixj7mwn wrote
I’ll be back with a link, (I know this isn’t truly ELI5, but it is actually research) but I read a study this week that connects ruminating thoughts with dysfunctional messaging from the enteric nervous system. TBH it was really difficult for this non-scientist to understand so maybe someone can interpret it? Brb
Brennir10 t1_ixmlbbd wrote
So —this is based on the theory that emotions are names for body states. Ie it’s not I am thinking about a test and feel anxious and then I get nauseous. Instead how emotions work is basically brain which already knows about the test is sending out various chemicals that are increasing your heart rate, increasing gut motility etc—and as a very small child you learn to name that feeling as fear. Your body is sending out chemical signals etc before you KNOW you are scared.
So you ought to learn “ everything in the gut is going at a normal rate, no changes in blood flow or digestion”= a peaceful state, contentment etc
Same with cardiovascular responses: your heart , diaphragm, lungs etc responds to things and you learn to name the response in some way—sadness, excitement etc.
Depending on your brain chemistry and your upbringing your name for the response may or may not be congruent with what is really happening in your life. For example I had an abusive childhood and was afraid a LOT. I learned that it’s “fear” and “bad things are going to happen” if my heart rate increased, stomach motility increased etc.Now when I am excited about something like a vacation, I will initially name the sensations in my body as “fear”—-sometimes to the point of wanting to cancel the thing I am excited about. I had. To do a lot of body centered therapy to rewire my names for my body’s responses and I had grown up in a dangerous environment so I tended to interpret any kind of arousal as a negative emotion.
It sounds like they are saying that people who ruminate negatively a lot have become insensitive to their bodies messages. So even though their stomachs are calm, heart beating normal, all the things that say things are ok in the world—-they cognitively are still feeling life is going badly. They aren’t receiving the messages from their body saying everything is actually pretty ok right now
Of course it’s really pretty complicated but if you struggle with anxiety or negative emotions interoception is very interesting to read about.
ApocalypseSpokesman t1_ixj9qvp wrote
I have a theory that there are different loci of cognition in the brain with competing inputs, but a particular one of them generally gets its way almost all of the time. The overruled loci are in something of a power struggle with the preferred one, each seeing an incomplete portion of all sensory input and having an incomplete cognitive toolkit for decision-making.
In this framework, intrusive thoughts are the demands of one or more subject loci, clamoring for power inside their grey milieu.
Also, we like intoxication and substance abuse because it temporarily upsets this detente and shunts more decision-making power towards cognitive loci that are generally denied it.
davidildo t1_ixjfl44 wrote
Stress response that the body experiences during the anxiety that comes with the experience. Humans are wired to do something when feeling anxious like walk around, hunt an animal, fight to defend ourselves or otherwise move.
Modern man sits at a desk and lashes out online to get that dopamine/adrenaline rush because they are not moving and reacting. Same with a car, we are sitting and feeling the anxiety, stress and excitement of moving at a high rate and endangering out lives, and our body has no release so it strains towards an action that releases that built up anxiety and chemicals inside our system.
jackneefus t1_ixjlkf0 wrote
One reason is that part of our brain looks at the world in terms of how it can interact with it -- for example grasping a handle, pushing a button, or stepping on a stair. There is a sense in which those things prompt those responses by being designed to be used. Stepping off a cliff is partly an extension of the impulse to grab and manipulate.
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Dovaldo83 t1_ixkuovz wrote
If you saw say a dramatic car accident, your body would naturally react by focusing on it. Your eyes widen. You become so hyper focused that time seems to slow down. This instinct probably helped our ancestors better avoid perilous events by being sure we took in every detail when they happen so we could better avoid them in the future.
When you are on the edge of a cliff and think about what would happen if you fall, your mind identifies that as another perilous event. It starts to become hyper focused on that thought just like seeing an actual perilous event would because it has trouble distinguishing the difference. It's not that you want to fall off the edge. Quite the opposite. But you can't help but think about falling off the edge because your instincts compel you to become focused on such events.
EmploymentNo1094 t1_ixkwo2c wrote
These thoughts are triggered when you, or more specifically your brain overheats.
When your brain overheats you react to otherwise neutral stimuli as if you were being attacked, hence the swearing as a defense mechanism.
It’s called Thermoregulatory Fear of Harm Mood Disorder.
Preventative cooling activities can really help and also ketamine too.
f1345 t1_ixl3cgz wrote
Vsauce did a video on this a while ago. From what I remember - when standing at a cliff, two parts of your brain are conflicting: One part wants you to pull back out of danger, while another part realizes that you aren't in any immediate danger. Your brain resolves this by making up something like you intended to jump or push someone.
Preorder_Now t1_ixlroy7 wrote
When you begin learn something you have to exceed “active” thought processes. After you know how to do said thing your automatic brain facilitates actions.
Most of us do not think about walking. And can think and multitask. However when you run most need to utilize “system two thinking” process more.
Book recommendation: Thinking, Fast and Slow 2011 book by Daniel Kahneman
Ageshio t1_ixlygtv wrote
I have a theory that it has to do with the feeling of not being in control of anything in your life anymore, and that "the call to the void" is the last ditch effort to have some semblance of control.
[deleted] t1_ixig8sh wrote
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explainlikeimfive-ModTeam t1_ixj8xm4 wrote
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Your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
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PermutationMatrix t1_ixhqnru wrote
I would suggest talking to a therapist. You might be experiencing depression or anxiety or some other psychological issue that is causing you stress subconsciously. There's no shame in talking to a licensed medical professional about your mental health.
Koalifiedm t1_ixhrw6l wrote
Hey hey hey!!! I thought this was normal!!!
DapperWheel521 OP t1_ixi49pi wrote
Am not suicidal at all or anything, but I used to think that It was just me then I googled it and it's common and it's called intrusive thought or call of the void
Porkus_Aurelius t1_ixhsjsa wrote
I can't find it now, but I read an article about this that supposed our reason for having these feelings is that we are analyzing the situation and we ultimately decide it's a bad idea. The urge to do the thing isn't so much your brain pushing you to do it, but rather considering what would happen if you did.
That said, there is nothing wrong with talking to a therapist if you really feel like acting on these things.