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its-a-throw-away_ t1_ja81oii wrote

You graduate university with a bachelor's degree. You may then pursue a master's degree and then a philosophical doctorate (PhD).

Work toward your bachelor's degree occurs before you graduate; hence, you are an undergraduate.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8bkjr wrote

Masters degrees are not usually pre-requisites for doctorates. They are often two entirely different programs and application processes. Everyone I know with PhD’s both in science, tech and humanities went directly from undergraduate degree to doctoral programs.

ETA: I’m responding from a US perspective as apparently this isn’t the case globally.

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Scuttling-Claws t1_ja8i0yc wrote

It can be complicated, I know many people who finished their bachelors, enrolled in a PhD program and dropped out, just taking a masters for their work.

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IceColdPorkSoda t1_ja8l6x0 wrote

Yes, the phrase is "mastering out." It used to carry heavy negative connotations, but the view within academia and industry towards master's degrees has changed a lot over the past two decades.

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robot_egg t1_ja8lhpm wrote

When I was in grad school for chemistry, it was a doctoral program. That said, doctoral candidates were awarded master's degrees at about half way to one's PhD.

Many of the PhD candidates that washed out were granted master's to reflect their study beyond a BS.

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Demiansmark t1_ja8humo wrote

It can often function a bit like an AA vs a Bachelor's degree - where after so many credits you can 'apply' for the AA.

In a doctorate program you usually have 2-3 years of coursework followed by a dissertation, which can take one to forever years. At least in my program at the University of Florida you could apply for the masters if you've completed the coursework. Often times, graduate programs that end with a masters degree are geared towards a specific vocation or profession, such as a MBA for business. In political science, the masters/grad programs were geared toward students wanting to enter something like public policy instead of academia/research.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8nfe5 wrote

Yes but they’re inverse examples. It’s not unusual to go for an AA and parlay that in to a BS later. It’s unusual in nearly all fields I’m aware of to take a Master’s and then go for a PhD. In most cases a masters isn’t offered in the same discipline as the PhD (the big exception I can think of is public health). For example, my graduate program in Microbiology was a doctoral program - the way to earn a masters from that was either to decide to leave the program after the coursework was completed or to fail the qualifying exam. The masters wasn’t a program for which you could apply.

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Demiansmark t1_ja8nngp wrote

Correct. I meant more from the perspective that you sort of earn a hidden masters in the course of a doctorate program.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8onx8 wrote

Correct. I wish they would confer both degrees and get rid of the stigma around “mastering out”.

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Demiansmark t1_ja8p24s wrote

Never heard that term, which is amusing given that is what I did.

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algorithm0r t1_ja8tqd8 wrote

>It’s unusual in nearly all fields I’m aware of to take a Master’s and then go for a PhD.

You keep quoting your own anecdotal evidence. Your experience is incorrect. Master's degrees are required for PhD in many fields and universities around the world.

Source: I was required to get a Master's before my PhD in Canada and this is the norm at Canadian schools.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8u2ae wrote

I’ve edited my response to state that this is a US view. Your response is also anecdotal to your country of study.

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algorithm0r t1_ja8w3gu wrote

I'm not claiming that my anecdote is correct for everyone like you are.

I used my anecdote to prove your generalization was false.

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ConnieKai t1_ja8l4ud wrote

Wait is this true? That is not my understanding. May I ask what kind of degree they had? The only instance where I can think that this is true is if you get into a joint masters/doctoral program. I wonder if that is what they did.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8ocs5 wrote

In any of the sciences and (more limitedly since this isn’t my specific area) humanities I don’t know of a single program that requires a masters to apply for the doctorate. The masters is usually the result of someone leaving the doctoral program after coursework is complete but before having completed a large enough body of research to be considered ABD (all but dissertation). It could be different perhaps in other fields. There are definitely masters specific programs - MBA and public health both come to mind but at least for public health I don’t know of a program that would require the MPH for admission to a PhD program.

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Fix_a_Fix t1_ja8pup2 wrote

In Italy you don't have the choice, so it mostly depends.

Tho I saw that your PhDs is 4 years long, whereas ours is 2 years usually. So you do 2 years master degree and 2 year PhD, so it doesn't really change that much compared to yours

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PopeOfDestiny t1_ja8q7es wrote

In science and tech it happens a lot more frequently, but also I'd imagine depending on the country you'll seldom see PhDs without Masters, especially in the humanities.

I'm from Canada, and there are almost no humanities PhD programs that will even entertain your application without a Master's. I haven't looked into hard sciences; I know some years ago if you started your MSc they'd often let you just advance straight through to a PhD without actually completing your Masters, but I'm not sure how common that is anymore. Usually you had to have at least been accepted to an MSc program first to be able to do that though. And some of them are dual programs, so you're admitted to your PhD contingents upon doing a Master's first

At my grad school, I think every single PhD student has an MA/MSc, because it is a requirement for the program. The only exception I think is people who have worked for a very long time, they may make an exception there but I'm not sure.

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spencermiddleton t1_ja8m18z wrote

Yep - I have. PhD without a masters. But it started as a masters and “rolled into” a PhD. For research-based graduate degrees (masters and PhD), the difference is the depth of the research and the conclusions that can be inferred. PhD is usually about 4 years full-time depending on the project, while a masters is about half of that.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8p3x7 wrote

Interesting! Did you apply for a masters at a Uni and then enter their doctoral program? Or did you do this at different institutions or was it a joint program? What area of study, if you don’t mind my asking.

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spencermiddleton t1_ja8tq8u wrote

I went to another university other than my bachelor’s to help out with a summer study of someone my undergrad advisor was helping. The prof advising that study asked me if I wanted to take on a research project in their grad program. So serendipity. Toxicology.

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prowlick t1_ja8tnvh wrote

This one depends on the country, masters degrees are usually prerequisites to doctoral degrees where I live.

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stupidshinji t1_ja8vmsy wrote

This is definitely the case for chemistry. There are master’s programs and some schools offer enroute masters, but most PhD programs only require undergrad and then after qualifiers/comprehensives you officially become a phd “candidate”.

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K9turrent t1_ja83u8u wrote

TIL PhD is an acronym.

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EightOhms t1_ja84wnr wrote

It's not actually. It's an abbreviation. Acronyms are a subset of abbreviations that form a word you can say. That means most of the time they need to have a vowel.

For example, NASA is an acronym whereas FBI is not. NASA you pronounce as if it's a single word. FBI you pronounce by saying all its letters individually, just like PhD

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Martian8 t1_ja8661o wrote

Additionally, FBI is an initialism - another subset of abbreviations made from initial letters that are pronounced separately. Whereas PhD is not since Ph is not an initial

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K9turrent t1_ja898ki wrote

TIL I don't actually know my native language that well.

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aceguy123 t1_ja89jgi wrote

You need a graduate degree to understand

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LikesTheTunaHere t1_ja8er6d wrote

I have a masters in bation though and it hasn't helped me understand this stuff at all.

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GaiasEyes t1_ja8b96z wrote

PhD stands for doctorate of philosophy. It’s an abbreviation, not an acronym.

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ConnieKai t1_ja8lf4o wrote

Also want to add on to this that there are other doctoral programs that do not end in PhD. For example you could get a PhD in Psychology where you do a ton of research. Or a PsyD where it is less research and moreso you learning more real world clinical skills

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